GEOFF BENNETT: Good evening.

I'm Geoff Bennett.

AMNA NAWAZ: And I'm Amna Nawaz.

On the "News Hour" tonight: President Trump's effort to deploy more National Guard troops gets caught up in the courts.

We hear from the governor of one of the Democratic-led states being targeted.

GEOFF BENNETT: After agreeing to some parts of the president's peace plan, Hamas indirectly negotiates with Israel for an end to the devastating two-year war in Gaza.

AMNA NAWAZ: And a new term.

The U.S.

Supreme Court prepares to take up a case on the controversial practice of conversion therapy for LGBTQ youth.

KALEY CHILES, Licensed Professional Counselor: The care that is at stake in this lawsuit is that we are allowed to speak freely.

SIMON KENT FUNG, Host, "Dear Alana": It ends up stacking on levels of shame that a lot of people never recover from.

(BREAK) AMNA NAWAZ: Welcome to the "News Hour."

President Trump's plan to deploy National Guard troops to Democratic led cities is facing significant pushback and setting up a new showdown in federal courts over the limits of his authority.

GEOFF BENNETT: Illinois officials sued the Trump administration today to stop plans to send 400 troops from Texas to aid an immigration enforcement operation in Chicago.

The lawsuit called the plan unlawful and dangerous, but a federal judge disagreed, declining to block the deployment for now.

It comes just a day after a separate judge blocked the Trump administration from sending California's Guard to Oregon in response to a series of clashes outside an immigration detention facility in Portland.

The president said today he wants to get the city under control and would consider invoking the Insurrection Act.

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: If you look at what's happened with Portland over the years, It's a burning hellhole.

And then you have a judge that lost her way that tries to pretend that -- like there's no problem.

Actually, she's not even saying that.

There's a huge problem important.

I will tell you what the problem is, crime.

GEOFF BENNETT: For more on how the state is responding, we spoke earlier today with Oregon's Democratic Governor Tina Kotek.

Welcome to the "News Hour."

GOV.

TINA KOTEK (D-OR): Hey, Geoff.

GEOFF BENNETT: So I understand you spoke with President Trump about a week ago.

How did that conversation go?

GOV.

TINA KOTEK: Well, it was cordial.

I was very direct with him.

I don't understand why you think it's necessary just to have military intervention in the city of Portland.

We are a beautiful, vibrant, safe city.

Portland is doing well.

And I believe he had at the time and continues to have misinformation, a very old, outdated viewpoint about what is happening in Portland.

The protests that are happening outside of the ICE facility are confined to about a one-block radius of the city of Portland.

I will say, when I spoke with him, I was like, look, I believe local law enforcement has this situation managed, always open to conversation, but we do not need military intervention.

And, of course, that has continued to escalate since that initial conversation.

And it's been a very long week or so of trying to manage a situation that I think is unnecessary.

GEOFF BENNETT: And, just today, the White House made the point that the current demonstrations, in their view, mirror the unrest and violence that we saw back in 2020.

Here's what the White House press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, said.

KAROLINE LEAVITT, White House Press Secretary: For more than 100 days, night after night after night, the ICE facility has been really under siege by these anarchists outside.

They have been disrespecting law enforcement.

They have been inciting violence.

We saw, again, a guillotine rolled out in front of this federal building.

And so the president wants to ensure that our federal buildings and our assets are protected.

And that's exactly what he's trying to do.

GEOFF BENNETT: So respond to that claim, if you will.

GOV.

TINA KOTEK: Well, it's just a ludicrous characterization of the situation here.

I will just say, on Sunday yesterday, we had hundreds of people, thousands of folks in downtown Portland running the Portland Marathon.

This is not a war zone.

We don't have a challenge here in terms of managing lawful demonstrations outside the ICE building.

And I believe that they are looking back at information from 2020 and assuming this is the same.

Look, lawful demonstrations happen in the city of Portland outside of this facility.

It is being managed.

What I'm seeing and what we're seeing and what the mayor is seeing on the ground is an escalation from the agents who are protecting the building, trying to antagonize those protesters who are there.

And I would like to de-escalate the situation.

We don't need a military intervention.

And let's remember the federal judge agreed with that argument, not once, but twice.

The federal government has not made a compelling case, based on the evidence on the ground, that there is an actual problem as it relates to being an insurrection or a rebellion or whatever they think this is.

Look, there are lawful demonstrations.

If somebody crosses the line and there's criminal activity, local law enforcement is holding people accountable.

That's important.

The rest of the city doing fine.

We have our challenges, like every major city across the country.

But the real problems are not the ones the president thinks they are.

The real problems are other things that we should be dealing with.

GEOFF BENNETT: Let's talk more about the judge's ruling, because, as you mentioned, yesterday, a federal judge temporarily blocked the deployment of National Guard troops to Portland.

What's your assessment of her ruling?

And how does it shape your legal strategy moving forward?

GOV.

TINA KOTEK: Well, I want to appreciate everyone who's come forward quickly from the attorney general's office to put a good case in front of the federal judge.

What we saw is that the information that she has says there is no basis of fact that military intervention is necessary.

And her first ruling was about the Oregon National Guard.

When President Trump took the Oregon National Guard out of my command to deal with a situation that I believe is not based on facts, the court said, it's not the case.

You need to give the control back to the governor.

And then, a day later, they start calling up the California National Guard to come to Oregon, calling up the Texas National Guard to come to Oregon.

And the judge ruled again and said, look, I'm being very clear here.

This is not lawful.

Under Title X, this is not a lawful deployment.

And the president doesn't have a basis for doing this.

GEOFF BENNETT: Well, in a separate but related case today, the government said that the Texas National Guard is on its way to Illinois.

How should governors be prepared to respond when confronted by this type of action by the federal government?

GOV.

TINA KOTEK: Well, as I think we all know, the Trump administration has been an unprecedented roller coaster of decisions coming out of the White House that make no sense for states.

Governors have been prepared across this country to try to react.

And I have spoken directly with Governor Pritzker and Governor Newsom.

In the case of Illinois, I hope -- my understanding is, they have also filed with the federal court for a temporary restraining order to stop that deployment of the Texas National Guard.

We have to go to the courts to seek protection.

We are a country based on the rule of law.

Whether you are right, left, center, we as Americans believe in the Constitution and the rule of law.

And that is what should prevail here.

And this isn't about Oregon or Illinois anymore.

This is about every state in our country.

And what President Trump is trying to do is an abuse of power.

And it is a threat to our democracy.

Governors should be in command of their National Guards, our citizens soldiers who sign up to stand up in an emergency to deal with real problems.

What I would say to governors -- and I particularly want to talk to Republican governors.

This isn't a Democrat or Republican governor issue.

This is an issue for every governor.

Don't volunteer your folks.

This is a misuse of the authority of the president to intervene in a situation.

We do not want to take our troops onto the streets of American cities to go after our own citizens.

Local law enforcement across the country knows how to manage for these types of demonstrations.

Let them do their job and leave our troops at home.

GEOFF BENNETT: On another matter, it's been reported that the Trump administration, through the OMB director, Russ Vought, has canceled or frozen clean energy funding, including as much as $400 million in federal grants that Oregon stands to lose.

How do you assess the impact of that decision and what might you be able to do to mitigate the impact of those losses?

GOV.

TINA KOTEK: Well, this has been happening since the start of the administration, grants that have been obligated of being pulled back, money that had been promised to states, our taxpayer dollars going to D.C.

coming back to our states being canceled.

These are bullying tactics.

It's unacceptable.

We will continue to look at whether or not we have any options to fight these decisions by the president and the court.

When it comes to the $400 million of clean energy grants, it is delaying our ability as a state and, frankly, as a country to move to clean energy, to move to more renewable clean energy for our future.

One of those grants here in the state of Oregon was a $250 million grant going to the Confederated Tribes of the Warm Springs who were going to be behind a major upgrade in our electricity grid to move power from one side of the state to the other.

That is now completely in limbo.

That's jobs.

That's economic development.

And, frankly, the president is trying to punish states that didn't vote for them.

I want to back up and say, look, I took an oath when I became governor to be a governor for the entire state of Oregon, regardless if people voted for me.

I wish the president would uphold his oath as well to take care of every American.

GEOFF BENNETT: Oregon Governor Tina Kotek, thanks again for your time.

We appreciate it.

GOV.

TINA KOTEK: Thank you.

AMNA NAWAZ: The day's other headlines begin in Washington, where lawmakers appear no closer to reopening the government as the shutdown approaches the one-week mark.

In the Oval Office this afternoon, President Trump suggested that he is open to speaking with Democrats on their biggest demand, health care subsidies.

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: Well, if we -- if we made the right deal, I'd make a deal, sure.

AMNA NAWAZ: Democrats insist that any funding bill must extend Affordable Care Act subsidies that are set to expire at the end of the yea.

But, earlier in the day, Speaker Mike Johnson held firm that Republicans won't negotiate health care matters until after the government reopens.

REP.

MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): We need a handful of Democrats to stop the madness, reopen the government, so that we can get to these critical debates about the year-end policy decisions with regard to the further reforms to health care.

Plain and simple, that's where we are.

AMNA NAWAZ: This evening House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries called Mr.

Trump's comments interesting and added that Democrats remain open to negotiating with any Republicans, including the president.

On the first day of its new term, the Supreme Court rejected an appeal from Ghislaine Maxwell.

Lawyers for Jeffrey Epstein's longtime associate had argued that a plea deal should have shielded her from prosecution.

The court's decision means her only chance of early release would be clemency from President Trump.

She's currently serving a 20-year prison term.

Also today, the court declined to hear Missouri's bid to revive a law intended to negate federal gun regulations in the state.

They also brushed aside a lawsuit by far right influencer Laura Loomer against social media companies that removed her from their platforms.

And the court rejected an appeal by Live Nation in a consumer antitrust case related to ticket pricing.

French Prime Minister Sebastien Lecornu resigned just a day after announcing his Cabinet and less than a month in office.

His Cabinet selections had faced criticism from allies and opponents alike.

Lecornu's announcement adds to ongoing political uncertainty in France after President Emmanuel Macron's decision last year to hold snap elections that left the legislature deeply divided.

It's now up to Macron whether to name a new prime minister or dissolve the National Assembly and call early elections.

Lecornu's government will manage day-to-day affairs in the meantime.

Israeli authorities say they have deported more than 170 activists who took part in a flotilla aiming to bring aid to Gaza.

Climate activist Greta Thunberg was among the dozens who landed in Athens earlier today.

Israel also denied accusations that the activists had been mistreated while in Israeli custody.

Israel's Foreign Ministry posted images of their release, writing that -- quote -- "All the legal rights of the participants in this P.R.

stunt were and will continue to be fully upheld."

Meanwhile, lawyers say at least 150 people are still being held in Israel, with dozens taking part in a hunger strike.

The International Criminal Court today convicted a Janjaweed militia leader for atrocities committed in Sudan's Darfur region more than two decades ago.

JOANNA KORNER, Presiding Judge, International Criminal Court: The chamber is convinced that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt of the crimes with which he has been charged.

AMNA NAWAZ: Ali Muhammad Ali Abd-Al-Rahman showed little emotion as he was found guilty on 27 counts of crimes against humanity and war crimes.

He had denied the charges.

It is the first such conviction related to the violence in Darfur, where up to 300,000 people were killed and millions driven from their homes during a government crackdown on a rebellion starting in 2003.

Abd-Al-Rahman faces a maximum sentence of life in prison.

In Tibet, a rescue has been taking place on Mount Everest, where hundreds of hikers were trapped by heavy snow.

Chinese state media reported that around 350 hikers had made their way down to a safe meeting point, while rescuers are in contact with 200 others still on the mountain.

The hikers were stranded at an elevation of more than 16,000 feet.

The snowstorm hit during a weeklong national holiday in China, when many people travel both within China and abroad.

Mount Everest has seen multiple accidents and overcrowding issues in recent years.

Back in this country, South Carolina's top law official says there's no evidence to suggest that arson was to blame for a fire that destroyed a circuit court judge's home over the weekend, though the investigation is ongoing.

Smoke billowed over the marshes of Edisto Island as the residents went up in flames on Saturday.

Officials say three people were injured, but did not provide details.

The property is owned by circuit Judge Diane Goodstein, who has been a state judge for nearly three decades.

Last month, she temporarily blocked South Carolina from giving state voter data to the Department of Justice.

The CDC officially updated its vaccine guidelines today to align with recommendations made by the advisory committee that was picked by Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

The agency is no longer recommending COVID-19 vaccines for all Americans 6 months and older.

Instead, officials are encouraging -- quote -- "individual-based decision-making."

That includes checking with a medical professional, especially for seniors.

The agency is also recommending a stand-alone chicken pox shot for toddlers, rather than combining it with measles, mumps and rubella.

Many medical experts warn the committee's recommendations have led to confusion and mistrust over vaccines.

On Wall Street today, stocks started the week mixed.

The Dow Jones industrial average slipped about 60 points.

The Nasdaq rose around 160 points.

The S&P 500 also ended in positive territory.

And a trio of scientists won this year's Nobel Prize in physiology or medicine for their work on the human immune system.

The committee said the discoveries of Mary Brunkow, Fred Ramsdell and Shimon Sakaguchi helped advance treatments for cancer and autoimmune diseases and could help with organ transplants.

The announcement today in Sweden was the first of this year's Nobel announcements.

The three will share nearly $1.2 million in prize money.

And, tomorrow, the physics prize will be handed out.

Still to come on the "News Hour": why an increasing number of Israeli Reservists are refusing to be redeployed to Gaza; a leadership change shakes up CBS News; and Tamara Keith and Amy Walter discuss the state of the government shutdown.

Today, Israel and Hamas launched indirect talks in Egypt for a potential cease-fire in Gaza.

The first phase of the U.S.-drafted peace plan calls for the release of the Israeli hostages in exchange for the partial withdrawal of Israeli troops.

A second phase envisions the end of the war and a lasting governance plan for Gaza.

Nick Schifrin is following all this and joins us now.

So, Nick, give us the latest.

Where do these talks stand right now?

NICK SCHIFRIN: So, Amna, as you said, the U.S.

and Israel see this happening in two phases.

The first phase, Hamas would have to release all 50 Israeli hostages.

About 20 or so are believed to still be alive.

And then Israel would not really withdraw, but move back to what the yellow line that you see in this map created by the Trump administration, which is still deep inside Gaza, some four miles inside of Gaza in the south.

Israel would also release nearly 2,000 Palestinian detainees.

The U.S.

and Israel believe that they're having in Cairo right now, or in Sharm el-Sheikh, rather, a technocratic conversation.

What's the sequencing of this movement?

Does Hamas know where all the hostages are, including the deceased?

But here's the thing.

Hamas has not publicly agreed to the very concept of a phase one and a phase two that we have been talking about.

And, before today, mediators told me that Hamas was questioning key aspects of this deal, including not only the sequencing, but the very act of disarming that Israel said is required to actually seal this deal.

In the past, Hamas has not been willing to release hostages unless Israel ended the war and agreed to a full withdrawal, and that is not what phase one demands.

So what we're watching to see is whether Hamas' thinking has changed, whether they're willing to release hostages before that step that the Israelis would take.

AMNA NAWAZ: So, if they even get to us.

Tell us -- to it.

Tell us about phase two.

What does that entail?

NICK SCHIFRIN: These are the fundamental questions that have dogged all sides since October the 7th.

Let's go through some of them, a surge of humanitarian aid into Gaza, demilitarizing Hamas, allowing fighters amnesty if they renounce violence, international security force to take over Gaza, and the creation of a government led by Palestinians not connected to Hamas, and, of course, an eventual Palestinian state.

Pushed whether the administration actually does support a Palestinian state this weekend, Secretary of State Marco Rubio described how much time it might take to create new Palestinian governance in Gaza.

MARCO RUBIO, U.S.

Secretary of State: That doesn't exist right now.

That has to be built, and that's going to take time.

You're not going to build that in 72 hours.

You're not going to build that in 72 weeks.

I mean, it's going to take some time to get to that point.

NICK SCHIFRIN: For the record, 72 weeks from now is February 2027.

For his part, President Trump was more positive today about Hamas' abilities and intentions.

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: I think Hamas now has been -- all I can say is, they have been fine.

They have been fine.

I hope it's going to continue that way.

I think it will.

I really think we're going to have a deal.

We have a really good chance of making a deal, and it'll be a lasting deal.

We're going to have peace.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Amna, to give you a sense, though, of how difficult even phase one will be, a U.S.

official confirmed to me today that the U.S.

officials' part of this mediation, including Ambassador Steve Witkoff right there and the president's son-law, Jared Kushner, were not in Egypt today and will not be in Egypt until the two sides show more evidence of moving toward some kind of deal.

AMNA NAWAZ: Meanwhile, Nick, I know tomorrow, as you know, marks two years since those horrific Hamas attacks in Israel.

And your team have been working on stories to mark the week.

Tell us about those.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Yes, as you know, Amna, October the 7th is really a day before and a day after for the Middle East, when history split.

And we wanted to do a series of stories from the region.

A new poll finds that two-thirds of Israelis now say the time has come to end the war in Gaza.

That's the highest number since the beginning of the war; 27 percent -- you see that in red down there -- say it's not time to end the war.

And that divide in Israeli society is reflected inside Israeli's military, where some reservists say the war must be fought and won, and others are refusing to serve.

Above Israel's largest port, the words on the hostage poster declare "We'll bring them back and we will rise."

But Israeli military reserve Captain Ron Feiner believes the war in Gaza is leading the country astray.

CAPT.

RON FEINER, Israeli Defense Forces Reservist: After I understood that this government is not going to listen to the voice of most of the people in Israel and they are willing to keep the war going forever, I decided that I can't -- I just can't show up.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Since October the 7th, Feiner led Israeli infantry units on three deployments, including into Lebanon.

But when he was called up a fourth time, he refused and, with 400 other soldiers, signed a petition that declared: "The war in Gaza is a death sentence for our kidnapped brothers and sisters" and for Feiner a possible death sentence for his men.

CAPT.

RON FEINER: I decided to refuse only after I understood there is no other way to stop this war and also help them.Like, my soldiers under my command that we used to fight together in Lebanon, I really care for them.

And I also want to save their lives.

And I actually realized that, to save their lives, we have to stop the war.

NICK SCHIFRIN: In Israel's multiple wars since October the 7th, about half of the troops have been reservists, who traditionally hold territory after it's captured by active-duty troops.

The price that reservists have paid in Israel's longest war has been heavy, and that has led to a no-show rate reported by Israeli media of more than 40 percent.

CAPT.

RON FEINER: There is a huge amount of people in Israel that are not willing to show up anymore.

NICK SCHIFRIN: For his refusal, Feiner went to prison, released only because Israel went to war with Iran.

CAPT.

RON FEINER: I'm ready to go to prison again.

I think this is a price that is OK to pay for this kind of goal, which is, for me, so important and so urgent.

MASTER SGT.

RAPHAEL BECACHE, Israeli Defense Forces Reservist: I have seen what's happening on the ground, and I understand that right now what we are doing is not any more helping to bringing back the hostages.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Raphael Becache is a master sergeant in the Reserves and a tank gunner who until August fought on Gaza's front line.

He's been called up three times for a total of 300 days, deployed to both Gaza and Lebanon.

And he too signed a petition demanding the government make a deal.

MASTER SGT.

RAPHAEL BECACHE: I was very tired of not being listened by the government to do the job, sacrifice everything and not feeling that the government really care about us.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Becache lives in Be'er Sheva, about 25 miles from Gaza, and considers himself a strategist.

He says that Israel is fighting a guerrilla war against Hamas and cannot accomplish militarily its dual goals of defeating Hamas and saving the hostages.

He also warns, Israel is facing a social crisis tearing at the very fabric of Israeli society.

MASTER SGT.

RAPHAEL BECACHE: In my company only -- and I know it's in other places in the army -- a third of the people who were married got divorced during the war.

NICK SCHIFRIN: And yet he is a proud Israeli immigrant whose family moved here from France.

He expects to be called up again soon and has decided, despite reservations, he will still serve.

MASTER SGT.

RAPHAEL BECACHE: We can try our best as civilian, like I'm doing with you, like I'm doing in everywhere in Israel, trying to push for this operation not to happen and to bring back the hostages in another way and to get out of Gaza.

But when the army give an order, I think the role of a solder is to listen.

ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE OFFICER: Some experiences, they just change you.

NICK SCHIFRIN: This 22-year-old reservist is an intelligence officer.

She spoke to our producer Karl Bostic and asked we keep her anonymous.

After October the 7th, she volunteered for the Reserves and has since served 420 days.

ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE OFFICER: I think it's important that we have a strong army, but, in this situation, where the government wants this war to go on forever, I have a responsibility to use every power I have to stop this war.

The government will see it and will say (EXPLETIVE DELETED) the reservists aren't joining.

I'm sorry that I cussed.

QUESTION: And if they call you up, what will you do?

ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE OFFICER: I will do whatever I can to not go.

If we continue, it will go on forever.

NICK SCHIFRIN: She also calls the scale of Gaza's destruction unacceptable.

ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE OFFICER: There is a lot of suffering in this world, but this is not far away.

This is not in some other land which I can choose whether to care about it or not.

What's happening in Gaza, my country is doing it.

I care deeply, and a lot of people I know care deeply.

And we are not ignorant to it, and we are not cold to it, and we care.

NICK SCHIFRIN: And she cares for her fellow soldiers.

She says the war has distorted Israel's natural rhythm of life and death, and that young people especially have had to accept the pain of loss.

ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE OFFICER: I'm 22.

I have been to three funerals these last two years.

And people my age dying, people I know, it's just a part of life at this point.

And it's not something we can accept.

The fight for a better future, for peace, for equality will continue after this war.

And if I have to fight it for the rest of my life, I will.

NICK SCHIFRIN: But Israel's government and other reservists believe the fight that is necessary is the one to defeat Hamas.

MICHAEL LAPIN, Israeli Defense Forces: For me, I don't think it's a question.

It's an obligation to serve my country.

NICK SCHIFRIN: In the last two years, 23-year-old Michael Lapin has deployed five times for a total of more than 300 days.

Like all Israelis, he was touched by terror.

His grandmother lived in Nahal Oz, overrun by Hamas on October the 7th.

He believes the Israeli military and the cause for which it fights is moral.

MICHAEL LAPIN: We're talking about a strip, a very small area, with a lot of tunnels, with a lot of population.

And we're trying the best to taking care of the civilians, but both make sure Hamas is not going to rule ever again.

NICK SCHIFRIN: He too is also learning to live with the pain of loss.

But he has no doubt, if he's called up for a sixth time, what choice he will make.

MICHAEL LAPIN: As a brigade, we lost eight soldiers at 10 days.

I lost my captain.

That's some things that never leaves you.

I will go and I will serve until I'm not needed anymore.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Lapin's day job is at a Tel Aviv sports and live music bar that's a favorite for foreigners, Mike's Place, right next to the beach.

And between pours, he acknowledges how the war has divided Israel and its reservists.

MICHAEL LAPIN: What can I get you?

NICK SCHIFRIN: He refuses to judge anyone who refuses military duty.

MICHAEL LAPIN: I think everyone suffered a lot since the beginning of the war.

And if some people say enough for them, it's enough.

So I respect that.

And I thank them for their service.

Nobody like wars.

Wars is not a good thing.

But, at the end of the day, we want the end of Hamas and we want to live in peace without any wars.

NICK SCHIFRIN: And that is perhaps where Israel is unified, saving hostages, hoping to recover from the war's damage and ensuring the war never happens again.

For the "PBS News Hour," I'm Nick Schifrin.

GEOFF BENNETT: The U.S.

Supreme Court began a new term today marking the first day of oral arguments.

One of the marquee cases of this term will be argued tomorrow, a challenge to a ban on so-called conversion therapy for youth.

The practice broadly refers to attempts to change a person's sexual orientation or gender identity.

It's banned in 23 states and the District of Columbia.

By one estimate, some 350,000 LGBTQ adults received conversion therapy as adolescents.

The Supreme Court declined to hear challenges to such bans in the past.

But, as Stephanie Sy reports, this case is being heard against a backdrop of intensifying cultural and political debates around LGBTQ rights.

And a warning: The story includes discussion of suicide.

KALEY CHILES, Licensed Professional Counselor: And then every step you take.

STEPHANIE SY: Kaley Chiles has been a licensed counselor in Colorado Springs for about 10 years.

Her clients are mostly adults, but she sees some families and adolescents too.

And sometimes clients seek her help specifically because she's Christian.

KALEY CHILES: That is the world view on which all of my other activities lie.

And so that's just going to be an inevitable part of anybody coming and talking to me.

I meet them and we have a conversation.

What goals, if they already have goals in mind, do they think counseling will help them accomplish.

STEPHANIE SY: But, right now, Chiles says, the state of Colorado prevents her from helping some clients reach their goals.

In 2019, Colorado passed a law banning treatment for those under 18 that -- quote -- "attempts or purports to change an individual's sexual orientation or gender identity, including efforts to change behaviors or gender expressions or to eliminate or reduce sexual or romantic attraction or feelings toward individuals of the same sex."

Licensed providers who violate it face a $5,000 fine and potential loss of their license.

This week, the Supreme Court is hearing a challenge to Colorado's ban.

The lawsuit backed by the Trump administration was brought by Kaley Chiles, who argues the ban infringes on her right to free speech.

KALEY CHILES: The only care that we're talking about is conversations with people who are voluntary and who are coming to my office because they want to see me.

The care that is at stake in this lawsuit is that we are allowed to speak freely and that we are allowed to, by the product of that, sort through feelings, sensations, thoughts, beliefs.

It's truly that we can have a conversation without the government peering into our private counseling conversation and dictating what we can and cannot talk about.

STEPHANIE SY: Supporters of the ban say it's not a question of free speech, but professional conduct, regulating health care by prohibiting a practice that research has shown to be not only ineffective, but also associated with a roughly two-fold increase in suicide attempts.

JOYCE CALVO, Mother of Alana Chen: Yes, so this was in Spain.

STEPHANIE SY: Joyce Calvo's daughter, Alana Chen, was a devout Catholic who wanted to become a nun.

But when she was just 14, Chen confessed to a priest that she was attracted to other girls.

JOYCE CALVO: He went on to tell her that was a mortal sin, which is the worst sin.

And it's very scary for a child to think they're going to burn in hell.

And he was just telling her all these books to read and that I can help you.

And she was afraid, so she wanted that help.

STEPHANIE SY: After her confession to the priest, Calvo says Chen received almost a decade of conversion therapy and religious counseling, hidden from her parents.

Chen later described her experiences and emotions in her own words.

JOYCE CALVO: "I think the church's counsel is what led me to be hospitalized.

I was feeling so much shame that I was comforted by the thought of hurting myself."

STEPHANIE SY: Chen died by suicide in 2019, when she was just 24.

WOMAN: I didn't want anyone to know why I loved God so much.

STEPHANIE SY: Her story was documented in the podcast "Dear Alana" hosted by Simon Kent Fung, who experienced years of conversion therapy himself.

SIMON KENT FUNG, Host, "Dear Alana": It ends up stacking on levels of shame that a lot of people never recover from.

First, there's the shame that you feel for just being different, right?

Then there's the shame that comes from being told that something horrible happened to you that may do this way.

And then, thirdly, there's the shame that happens when you can't actually change.

STEPHANIE SY: Colorado's law doesn't apply to unlicensed religious counselors such as priests, who account for the vast majority of conversion therapy cases.

The ban went into effect just months before Alana Chen's death.

This past August, Calvo filed an amicus brief with the Supreme Court.

JULIA SADUSKY, Clinical Psychologist: How does my faith inform and fit with these experiences?

STEPHANIE SY: Julia Sadusky is a clinical psychologist in suburban Denver.

A Catholic, she often works with Christian youth and adults who struggle with their sexuality or gender.

She too wrote a brief for the Supreme Court case.

If a gay patient comes in or a transgender patient comes in and says, "I don't want to be this anymore," can a clinician set that goal and be within the ethical sort of framework that you all have as licensed practitioners?

JULIA SADUSKY: Therapy is not just about talking.

It's about psychological interventions that have research behind them.

When my clients come in and they do want to change their attractions, let's say, or they do, they want to align with their sex, it's not that as a therapist I'm arbitrating that and I'm saying, you're not allowed to have that goal.

What I'm doing is, I'm bringing in what we know from research.

And what I can tell you from the research is, we do not have clear protocols that help people align with their sex, and we don't have clear protocols that have been effective in changing sexual orientation.

STEPHANIE SY: Sadusky also argues that the ban doesn't actually prohibit the kinds of conversations Kaley Chiles wants to have with her clients.

JULIA SADUSKY: To the credit of whoever drafted this law, they wrote into the law that you are allowed to help people with identity exploration and identity development.

I don't know how much more clear a law could be about the valuing of identity work, the valuing of exploration without having a fixed outcome.

STEPHANIE SY: But some disagree.

ERIN LEE, Colorado Mother: It's very explicit that this is a requirement of the law that you cannot do anything but affirm or ignore.

And that's my experience.

STEPHANIE SY: In Northern Colorado, Erin Lee says her daughter Chloe began abruptly questioning her gender identity several years ago.

ERIN LEE: We didn't know how to talk about it.

And we didn't want to say anything we couldn't take back.

And so we just totally ignored it.

We didn't affirm, so we didn't call her the new name.

We also didn't say, you're not trans, that's not real.

STEPHANIE SY: Lee eventually contacted multiple therapists, but couldn't find the right fit.

ERIN LEE: We found a Christian counselor.

We were not Christian at the time, but we were looking for someone who wasn't going to automatically affirm.

She went through like six of these sessions and she was getting worse mentally.

She was becoming more withdrawn, more dark.

And we thought, why isn't she getting better?

But I now understand it's because counselors didn't -- they're afraid.

They're afraid to touch this issue.

They know they can't do what they're trained to do, which is ask questions and get to the root cause of why this person's feeling that way or help them through it.

In our daughter's case, she didn't want to feel that way.

STEPHANIE SY: Chloe, who is now 16 and no longer identifies as a boy, has since spoken out about her experience.

KALEY CHILES: I can certainly think of adolescents and people who I have witnessed suffer from this law.

STEPHANIE SY: Back in Colorado Springs, Kaley Chiles says she's had to turn away clients because she believes the law forces her to avoid certain conversations.

KALEY CHILES: The consequence is a $5,000 fine and the loss of your license, which is the loss of your career and your livelihood.

That's not a risk many people are willing to take.

STEPHANIE SY: Colorado officials say they haven't taken action against any provider since the law took effect.

But if the High Court overturns the ban, its supporters, like Joyce Calvo and Simon Kent Fung, believe the impacts will be sweeping.

SIMON KENT FUNG: I think the tragic outcome of this is likely that we're going to see more kids feeling alienated from their families and despairing.

What we're likely going to see are more stories like Alana's.

STEPHANIE SY: Alana eventually realized the conversion therapy wasn't working and her writings took on a different tone.

JOYCE CALVO: "I always thought there must be something wrong with me, not wrong with God or his roles.

I feel like I have been fooled all this time.

I'm so angry.

I'm hurt.

I still feel broken."

STEPHANIE SY: By then, it was too late.

Her faith and her life were lost.

For the "PBS News Hour," I'm Stephanie Sy in Colorado.

AMNA NAWAZ: Paramount announced today it's acquiring The Free Press, the independent news and commentary Web site founded in 2021 by Bari Weiss.

As part of the $150 million deal, Weiss will also take on a new role at CBS News as editor in chief.

A former opinion editor at The New York Times, Weiss describes herself as a centrist politically and is known for pushing back against what she calls woke orthodoxy in mainstream media.

She alleged a culture of intolerance when she resigned from The Times.

After the announcement, Weiss posted a video message saying, in part, this: BARI WEISS, Editor, The Free Press: What does it mean for CBS News?

It means a redoubled commitment to great journalism.

It means building on a storied legacy and bringing that historic newsroom into 2025 and beyond.

Most of all, it means working tirelessly to make sure CBS is the most trusted news organization in the world.

AMNA NAWAZ: For more on what this means for CBS News and the broader media landscape, I'm joined by Oliver Darcy.

He's founder and lead author of the media newsletter Status.

He also co-hosts his podcast called "Power Lines."

Oliver, welcome to the "News Hour."

Thanks for joining us.

OLIVER DARCY, Status: Thank you for having me.

AMNA NAWAZ: So before we talk about what this all mean, just tell us a little bit more about Bari Weiss.

I mean, this is someone who criticized Trump in his first term.

She's also staunchly defended Israel, decried woke culture in colleges and media.

How would you describe her voice and her role in the media landscape?

OLIVER DARCY: Sure.

I think she's unquestionably -- and she probably would concede this herself -- a very polarizing figure.

She is someone who is difficult to really put in one bucket.

You wouldn't say she's, for instance, a MAGA media personality, but she certainly not on the left either.

I think the things that -- the best way actually to maybe describe her is what she stands against, what she rails against.

And that really does end up aligning her more with conservatives.

She is, for instance, very anti-DEI, anti-woke, as you said.

She has been a very staunch critic of the mainstream press and I think at times has been actually fairly dishonest in the way she's portrayed how the mainstream press operates and how it reports and suggested, for instance, that it is biased, it's unfair, it doesn't take into account the conservative point of view.

And while she has been critical of Trump at times, while The Free Press has been critical of Trump, I can't help but say that if you go to The Free Press on a regular basis, it's a right-wing opinion blog really at the end of the day.

And while it does criticize Trump occasionally, the main threat, I think you would -- you take away, you would say the main threat to Western civilization is not Trump and the creeping autocracy in this country.

It's really initiatives like DEI or being too woke, and that is the real main threat to Western civilization, to America.

And that's what David Ellison is buying today.

It's this right-wing opinion blog that really pushes those narratives.

AMNA NAWAZ: Well, so what does this mean for CBS News then, Oliver, for a fierce critic of mainstream media to now be in charge of one of the legacy institutions here?

It's home to storied journalism brands like "60 Minutes."

What does that mean for CBS News and what are you hearing from folks inside?

OLIVER DARCY: I think there's real concern inside CBS News about what this means.

I don't think anyone really knows what it means.

I think we can just, though, read the tea leaves, right?

And if you follow Bari Weiss, you know she's been, again, critical of the way the mainstream press has operated, critical of the way, for instance, it covered the pandemic and the election of Donald Trump and a number of other things.

So I think what we will likely see is them work to fold in what they would say are conservative views, which end up being pro-Trump views.

I think that's certainly likely to happen at CBS News.

But there's a real question of how involved Bari will be in guiding this organization editorially.

Is this a editor in chief title that she is being given, but she's really not going to be in the lead, or is she actually going to be on those 9:00 a.m.

editorial meetings directing coverage?

And that remains to be seen.

And I think that's what CBS News are thinking -- or staffers are wondering today.

How involved is she going to be programming a program like "60 Minutes"?

Is it going to be very hands on or is she going to let the program operate fairly autonomously like it has for decades?

That's unknown.

AMNA NAWAZ: So give us the bigger media picture landscape here now, because when you look at the Ellison family here, right, you have Larry Ellison, the father of David Ellison, who's the founder of Oracle.

Larry is -- he's a strong Trump supporter as well.

He's also now among the investors in this newly configured American version of TikTok.

The family is also aiming to acquire Warner Bros.

Discovery.

This father-son duo now controls huge swathes of the media, both in social media and in Hollywood and on television.

How does that change the landscape?

OLIVER DARCY: Yes, these are the new media titans of our age.

Like you said, they already control Paramount, which means they control CBS News, the Paramount Pictures studio.

And now they are, to my understanding, according to sources, preparing a bid for Warner Bros.

Discovery, which obviously has the Warner Bros.

studio, controls HBO Max and also has CNN.

And so what you could see soon is David Ellison and his son -- or -- sorry -- Larry Ellison and his son David Ellison controlling a large part of how Americans absorb the information from around the world, the news as well as entertainment.

They could own TikTok.

They could own Paramount.

They could own Warner Bros.

They could own CNN, CBS News.

This would be a really unprecedented amount of control over how people get their information, how it's shaped, how culture is shaped.

And it's coming from people, again, who have been the very least sympathetic to Donald Trump.

Larry Ellison is an ally of Donald Trump.

He's been at the White House.

And as part of this deal, David Ellison agreed to a number of concessions to get this deal across the finish line at CBS News.

So they installed the conservative ombudsman there.

They're obviously bringing on Bari Weiss and a number of other things.

So I think it's at the very least concerning here.

AMNA NAWAZ: Oliver Darcy from the media newsletter Status joining us tonight.

Oliver, thank you.

Good to speak with you.

OLIVER DARCY: Thank you.

GEOFF BENNETT: Well, it is day six of the federal government shutdown and there are no signs of the stalemate ending.

To discuss that and more, we're joined now by our Politics Monday duo.

That's Amy Walter of The Cook Political Report With Amy Walter and Tamara Keith of NPR.

So, as I said, it doesn't seem like anything is going to change soon.

The House is out again this week.

The Senate is expected to vote again today.

That vote is expected to fail.

So, Tam, what could break this logjam?

TAMARA KEITH, National Public Radio: Probably the most likely thing to break the logjam is some sort of pressure coming to bear.

And what I mean is paychecks not going out.

When you get to a point where paychecks aren't going out, in the past shutdown in 2019 -- 2018 and 2019, that finally ended in part because TSA agents weren't coming to the office or weren't going to the airport because their paychecks weren't coming through.

So there hasn't been a real forcing mechanism just yet.

The public outcry isn't really there.

It's obviously a really big deal here in Washington, D.C.

It's less of a big deal in other parts of the country at this point.

We did see the president today -- and this is a little confusing -- say that he was negotiating, that they were negotiating with Democrats about health care, which is the issue that Democrats are sort of asking for negotiations on.

The issue, though, is, Democrats on the Hill and Republicans on the Hill who've spoken to my colleagues say there are no negotiations.

So maybe the president is saying -- maybe the president is spelling out a potential path going forward, but he's spelling out a future path that doesn't currently exist.

GEOFF BENNETT: And, Amy, there's some new polling from CBS News and YouGov that shows everyone is getting bad marks for how they're handling this.

AMY WALTER, The Cook Political Report: Yes.

GEOFF BENNETT: About half of Americans disapprove of how the president and Republicans and how Democrats in Congress are dealing with this.

Might public pressure change anything?

AMY WALTER: Well, it's clear, I think as Tam pointed out, that it's still in the theoretical realm right now.

And so when it gets into the realistic realm, whether it's TSA agents or whether it's other government services that impact people being cut or stymied, then you may see the pressure coming on.

Right now, Democrats feel heartened by the fact that Republicans are still getting a little bit more of the blame in a lot of these public polls.

But to me the bigger question has always been, why do Democrats want to do this and what are they going to try to extract from this process?

A lot of it driven by, as we have talked about before, the ways in which the Democratic base is so frustrated with what they see as a feckless leadership in Washington.

When you looked at that CBS poll, though, only about 48 percent of Democrats think today that this is worth it, that the shutdown is worth it, that trying to get concessions from Republicans on health care, that is not yet breaking through to a majority of even Democratic voters.

And so, at the end of the day, if Democrats do end up voting for opening reopening the government by allowing that cloture to happen, then and will the base feel like they got something out of this, or will they feel as if this was yet another fight that Democrats lost to Donald Trump?

GEOFF BENNETT: Yes.

Well, let's talk about the National Guard deployments, because, as we have reported on this program earlier, both the state of Illinois and the city of Chicago have sued the Trump administration to block National Guard troops being deployed to Chicago.

The president's plan to do the same in Portland was blocked yesterday by a federal judge.

Tam, based on your reporting, what's the president's endgame?

What is he trying to gain by sending in these troops?

TAMARA KEITH: The president has talked about wanting to send troops into cities for a long time.

He has continued this.

I mean, this goes back to when he was on office before during 2020 in the wake of the George Floyd protests.

And this is a continuation of that, pushing it further.

Today, though, he was asked if he would invoke the Insurrection Act, which would give him even greater power.

And he said he hasn't needed to do that yet.

Part of this is having this fight, having this public fight with Democratic cities.

And part of it is that there are true believers in the Trump White House, including Stephen Miller, who believe that ICE agents are directly under attack and that the National Guard is needed to protect them.

GEOFF BENNETT: And, Amy, we talked so much about the impact on these cities and the Democratic leaders.

What's the potential impact, the potential political liability for President Trump with this perceived executive overreach?

AMY WALTER: Yes, well, it is being seen right now when you look -- again, just look at that poll that came out from CBS -- 58 percent disapprove of sending National Guard into the cities.

This is one of those issues that it's not just that it's polarizing, Republicans absolutely supportive of it, Democrats absolutely against it, but independent voters really do not like what they are seeing with this.

And I think that's really what it comes down to.

We have seen over the course of the first term, but certainly in the second term, the president's decision to really target blue cities, states, whether it is with National Guard troops, whether it's cutting funding or holding up funding in those states.

It's very clear that his agenda is to make the states that did not vote for him, there's a price to pay for that versus the red states that did.

GEOFF BENNETT: And the time that remains, I want to talk about redistricting, because voting apparently kicks off in California today as voters decide the fate of their redistricting measure.

AMY WALTER: Yes.

GEOFF BENNETT: There are new maps in Texas that are subject to a court hearing.

There are fresh efforts by Republicans in Utah and Nebraska to redraw those maps.

Let's talk about California.

What does the polling suggest there, how might that go?

(CROSSTALK) AMY WALTER: Yes, the polling right now suggests that the yes campaign, so it would allow the redrawing of these lines to go through, is ahead.

But there's still a lot of people who are undecided on this.

They haven't heard a lot about this.

So this next month is going to be critically important on persuasion.

Donald Trump, not surprisingly, playing a starring role in this in a state where he is deeply unpopular.

But for the folks who are trying to defeat this proposition, the issue of fairness, basically overriding an independent commission, letting politicians draw district lines, that's also very unpopular.

So that's where they're going to go in terms of their messaging.

Utah is also fascinating.

It's one of the few states where Democrats may get an opportunity to expand their reach.

This is not exactly a blue state, but the city of Salt Lake City is very Democratic.

And this came through a court decision that had been litigated for the last couple of years.

If this new map is approved by the judge, this could give Democrats an opportunity in two districts in Utah.

GEOFF BENNETT: More to come.

AMY WALTER: Yes.

GEOFF BENNETT: Amy Walter, Tamara Keith, our thanks to you both.

AMY WALTER: You're welcome.

TAMARA KEITH: You're welcome.

GEOFF BENNETT: And that is the "News Hour" for tonight.

I'm Geoff Bennett.

AMNA NAWAZ: And I'm Amna Nawaz.

On behalf of the entire "News Hour" team, thank you for joining us.