(bright upbeat music) To the, to our ThinkTV panel today.

I'm Jami Vallandingham, live from CET Studios.

With me are my fellow members of the CET ThinkTV Planned Giving Committee.

David Bross, Adonis Caneris, Sara Elrod Ruml, and Kristin Lenhart.

We are pleased to be joined by a live studio audience today at CET, as well as guests joining online.

We're happy to take your questions after the discussion.

If you're joining us online, use the button below this video to ask your questions.

Let's get started.

So today we're going to discuss the ABCs of estate planning.

A for advisors, B for the beneficiaries, and C for communications.

However, first, let's set a baseline for what truly an estate plan is.

So David, I'll send the first question over to you, who should actually have an estate plan?

Thank you Jami, it's great to be here today.

You know, when it comes to estate plan, I think the answer is, it's simple, it's everybody over the age of 18.

And I say 18 because, if you're under the age of 18, you can't have one.

But it's for a variety reasons from that point.

So it could be you're 19, 20 years old, you don't have much wealth or assets, but need to have somebody in place to act on your behalf if there's an emergency situation.

As you go through life, maybe you have children, maybe you wanna set up a trust fund in case something happens to you so that they're taken care of, and you don't have to worry about the court system being involved with that process.

And then later in life, as you've accumulated wealth, maybe there's some strategic tax reasons to have a more sophisticated estate plan.

So the simple answer to that is, everybody.

That's great, I agree, everybody does.

So when we talk about an estate plan, there's lots of things that are involved in that.

Kristin, you wanna rattle off a few of those things that we wanna make sure we have included?

Sure, yeah.

So when we talk about like your estate planning documents, there's, again, as David alluded to, there could be a myriad of different reasons and different documents that you're using, and more sophisticated planning, obviously you could have, you know, very many documents.

But, sort of the core package of documents that sort of everyone should think about having are gonna cover both what happens at your passing, and then as he also alluded to, what happens if you have something happen to you while you're still alive, but you need someone to make decisions for you.

So typically on the end of what happens at your passing, we're looking at a will, everyone should have a will, people possibly also need a trust, and there's various types of trust, and we can get in a minute, a little bit more detail of what these are.

But those are sort of the two kind of core documents to govern your assets at your passing.

And then on the flip side, to govern things if something were to happen, some kind of emergency, or you have develop dementia, or Alzheimer's, or something like that, and need someone to act for you, but you're still alive, you've got powers of attorney.

So both the financial powers of attorney to do financial things, and then healthcare to do health decisions.

And so I think we were maybe gonna spread out and go into a little bit more of detail.

Absolutely, absolutely.

So Sara, do you wanna talk about, pick one, pick your favorite one to talk about.

Do you wanna talk about one of those, or two of those?

Well, I'll talk about the ones you need while you're alive.

Once, this can happen for your children, your college age grandchildren, you know, once someone turns 18, your parents can't act for you anymore.

Or as you age up, you need people to help back you up on things.

So you need a healthcare power of attorney that makes your wishes known, maybe regarding not so fun things, like feeding tubes and ventilators, and organ donation.

But most importantly, who you want to make healthcare decisions for you if you can't.

It can be one person, it can be multiple people acting together, you get to decide if you want them to all have to agree, or if it can be majority, and that can get tricky, when you've got grown children who all have their own opinions, and so you're also trying to preserve family relationships as well.

You also need someone to handle your money and your finances, and deal with the insurance company, or sell your house or things like that.

That's when you need your financial power of attorney.

I always encourage people to name it, one person to be the primary person, and at least one backup.

You can name as many backups as you want, you could have 10 people as backups.

But keep in mind these are all people that have the power to go to your bank, and handle your assets just like you would if you were able to take care of it yourself.

So these are people you want to trust implicitly that they're not going to run off to Mexico with all of your money.

-(laughing) -Thank you.

I do have a question about the, if you don't mind, about the healthcare side of things.

So my in-laws recently, their doctor said, do you have it?

And I think that's kind of normal now that the physicians are starting to ask some of these questions.

But they handed them a packet and said, take a look at this, read over it, and you know, if you decide you wanna do this, give us a copy of it as well.

Is that good enough, or do they need to talk to an attorney to get something drafted?

Some states like Ohio have packets, have forms that are easily available online, that anybody can find.

You Google healthcare power of Attorney Ohio, it's gonna take you to a forum that's recognized and is usable.

If you have more nuanced questions or if you have more deeper questions, you should definitely talk to a professional advisor.

And just to make sure that you feel like you're a hundred percent comfortable, and you understand everything that this document says and means for you.

Because once you sign it, it's perfectly binding.

And you also wanna make sure you observe all the proprieties required to execute a document.

Whether it needs to be notarized, or it can be witnessed by two people who are not named in the document, you can't have your husband and your daughter be witnesses to your healthcare power of attorney.

You need to find two friends, two strangers, somebody that's not named in the document.

So it's really important to double and triple check that the documents are properly executed, because otherwise, they're not valid.

And so really just make sure, and don't be afraid to question the sources of the documents.

If you find a packet, if your doctor gives you a packet, or a hospital gives you a packet, those are probably vetted and good to go.

But if your neighbor gives you something, or somebody tags something on Facebook, don't be afraid to drill down a little deeper and do your own research.

Thank you.

Adonis, you wanna talk a little bit about the little and kinda what goes into that process?

Yeah, sure, the other two critical documents as part of everyone's estate plan is a will, and potentially, a trust as well.

Those are documents that become effective upon death, is we're talking in this context.

I'll start with the trust first.

The trust can have effect during your life or at death.

So there's another additional benefit of a trust.

But really when we look at the trust in the will, what we're talking about is managing, and settling someone's financial affairs in the context that we're talking about, and it's really someone that's inventorying assets, paying debts, paying taxes, and then making distributions to beneficiaries ultimately.

They do differ a little bit.

The will is a statutory sort of document, and you have formalities that need to be adhered to to having a legal will in Ohio.

So that's when you really do wanna work with your attorney to make sure all the requirements are met.

But in a will you typically will name an executor to handle your financial affairs, to wind up your financial affairs.

Then you have a trust also.

A trust has, again, a little bit more versatility than it will, it can function during your lifetime for incapacity planning, if something happens to you, you have a trustee, and at death as well as to distribute your assets.

And they often work in concert together.

But generally in a trust, you'll name a trustee as well, which is analogous to the executor's role, but they are separate.

But most estate plans, we wanna make sure that we have a will, and oftentimes, we'll draft the trust, they generally work together, and you wanna name trusted individuals to serve in those, those critical roles as a fiduciary, as an executor of your will.

And then for your trust, your trustee.

You know, those could be trusted individuals, they could be professional trustees such as banks.

You can name your, you know, maybe your attorney or CPA, but you would talk to your attorney as to who you think is the right person to serve in his capacities, 'cause I will tell you, you know, my father-in-law, I'm going through his estate personally right now, and there's a lot of complexities as we work with the probate process, and you wanna make sure whoever you name is gonna be very comfortable with serving in that role.

So, again, you know, that's kind of a high overview of the trust and the will.

And of course, you know, where do the assets go, in your will and your trust.

Do you want it to go to your kids?

Do you want it to go to charities?

Is it outright distributions?

Do you want further trust for your kids?

Do you want credit protection for, credit or protection for your kids?

There's a whole slew of things that need to be discussed in that process.

Yeah, and I think that trust can be extremely complex or extremely simple.

And it's not always dependent on what your asset level is either.

It can be that it can be very, very difficult, when you don't have a significant amount of assets, or it could be the simplest thing when you have lots of money.

So again, I think it takes someone who understands what's going on and understands kind of you, and what your end goals are to make those, -to help you through that.

-Great point, and a trust will serve for any size estate, right?

'Cause the purpose of a trust, one of the purposes is probate avoidance.

Doesn't matter if you have a smaller estate or a large estate.

Another point of a trust is estate tax mitigation also.

Those are separate and distinct, and that's usually people with more substantial estates when we look at estate tax planning as it relates to revocable trust.

But to your point, they can be simple, they can be complex.

I think the takeaway is they're versatile, and they're flexible.

And really a trust is, you know, there's no two trusts that are the same, 'cause everyone's clients' desires and wishes -are different.

-Different.

So that's when you'll work with your advisors to make sure your wishes are in place.

Yep, yep, very true, very true.

So when you talk about, you know, you mentioned you have someone that is an executor or someone is a trustee, how do you pick that person?

You know, is it- Do they need to have some sort of a financial background, or is it just my best friend is going to do it?

And where do those conversations come in, because, I don't think anyone goes into that situation really understanding what that can turn into.

It can be nice, it can be a nice process if everyone gets along, but sometimes it seems to go down a path once you get there that may not be as pleasant.

So, how do you make that decision as to who that person should be?

You know, anybody have any, like, how do you guide your clients to say, okay, here's where we need to be with this, or, here's the type of person you need to think about.

I think with anything here, it is a combination of factors, and I think, there needs to be an understanding of what the roles are, first off.

So, when it comes to the last will and testament, and you appoint that executor, that role is really only, it's a short term role, it's a nine to 15 month role.

And really all you're doing in that role is you're, what I call is the quarterback of this estate, right?

And you are only administering the probate assets of the estate, the assets that go through the court system to transfer to pursuant to the terms of that will.

And when I say probe, what is a probate asset?

I think that's important.

That's an individually owned asset.

So it's, you own your car, in your individual name, that would have to go through probate.

You own a bank account in your individual name, that would go through probate.

As soon as you name a beneficiary on those accounts, that is no longer part of the probate process, and it's no longer governed by the last will and testament.

So I think it's important to explain what that role truly is.

The trustee's role is more long term.

You know, if you're talking about setting up a trust for your minor kids, and something happens to both parents when that child is 15, that trust could be in place for the next 60, 70, 80 years for that child, depending on how you set up the order to the trustee.

So that's a much longer term role.

So I think it's a combination of discussions with your, the attorney you're working with to make sure you understand what the roles are.

I think it could be with your financial or wealth advisors, 'cause they're having an understanding what assets could be passing through these vehicles.

And then it's a conversation with the potential candidates of those roles.

Do they wanna take on those roles?

You know, I don't know if you necessarily have to have a financial background or a legal background to act in those roles, but I do think you need to surround yourself with the expertise to help you do them.

And so I think, there's a variety of factors that would go into that.

-Yep.

-Can I?

If I could just jump in, I think that absolutely what you just said at the end there is really important.

I have clients who I think, think that that person has to be all the things, like, they need to understand how to do taxes, and how to invest, and how- But you need to make them understand that yes, you have this team, like they are the trustee, but they can hire an accountant to do the taxes, they can hire an professional investment advisor, they can hire an attorney, like they will have a system of, a support system around them, to help them perform this role, you know, to the best of their ability.

Right, yeah, I think that's exactly, that's the way it should be.

So if you talk about, you had brought up before the estate exemption, and so we have current, we have what we're dealing with right now, you know, we just had the law that was passed here a few days ago.

So, Sara, you wanna kinda run a little bit with kind of what all that looks like?

Estate tax is kind of, it's a bit of a boogeyman.

I think people are saying, I don't wanna pay any estate taxes.

I've already paid taxes on my income, why am I gonna get double taxed when I die?

This is terribly unfair.

Right now the estate tax exemption, if you die in 2025, is $13.99 million a person.

So you and your spouse need to have almost $28 million in assets that are not held in a variety of different ways, there are a lot of different ways to kind of lower your balance sheet before the federal government is going to look for a nickel from your estate, or an estate tax.

Kentucky, if you live in Kentucky, I'm gonna warn you, Kentucky is a little bit different, Kentucky has an inheritance tax.

That if you leave money to people, sort of outside your first degree relatives, separate from your parents, your kids, your step kids, but if you leave money to a sibling, a cousin, a niece or a nephew, your best friend, Kentucky will have an inheritance tax that ranges, based on a percentage of the gift that you have to pay.

That's the only state of Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, that has any kind of estate tax or inheritance tax that you would need to worry about.

If you have more than $28 million, please, please, please hire professional advisors to help you sort through the best ways to do that.

But if you're like most of us, and maybe you're just shy of $28 million as a couple, just shy, there are a lot of different ways that you can, you know, you don't have to, you can plan, you can give the gifts to the people you want to, you can protect, you can give gifts to the people and the causes you care the most about, and not have to worry about a straight up estate tax hitting you.

Now there are different things about retirement accounts and different taxes that may hit over time, depending if you have 401(K)s or Roth IRAs, and all those kinds of things.

I'm not saying you're never gonna get another tax bill again, but you don't have to worry about an estate tax bill unless you're over these thresholds.

With the legislation that was just passed and just signed in July of 2025, the exemption's going to continue to grow, and for 2026 it will be $15 million a person.

So it will continue to adjust for inflation for the next several years.

None of us really know what will happen after the next several years, but, you know, let's assume it's not going to get cut dramatically, because that would be deeply, deeply unpopular for a lot of people if the exemption went down to a lower number, like $5 million.

Because a fair number, a lot more people have $5 million by the time you had in your retirement accounts in your house, and all these different kinds of things.

Yeah, and I do think that was something that was kind of out there looming with the expiration that was coming at the end of this year, that a lot of people were worried about, are we going to, are we going to go backwards?

Because at the way things were, if it did expire, it was gonna go back to around 7 million, right?

-Right, correct.

-So that was going to then pick up a lot more people than what we were anticipating under what we have right now.

So the fact that it got put into this bill, and it's supposedly a permanent bill, but you're right, it's never permanent, there isn't anything with taxes that's ever permanent other than you get to pay them, but.

So I think, you know, it really did, I think a lot of people had a sigh of relief when that came through and that was part of the bill that that got set and so now we can go forward -with some of that.

-We can go forward with a little bit of certainty for the next several years.

Exactly, exactly.

Yeah, I think a lot of things were being held up to what's gonna happen?

Okay, if this happens, we're gonna do this, if this happens, we're gonna do this.

So there was a lot of conversation around that.

I know that I've heard in the last several years, what are we gonna do?

Right, 'cause if you count on the government to be functional, you may have a little bit of a headache in your life.

So it's always tricky when it's not something that you can count on to always continue to grow, or always grow by the same factors because, when it can be cut in half with sort of very little warning, it can make estate planner's hair go grayer than it already is.

Just a follow up on that is, I think for most people, when it comes to overall tax planning in the estate context, is income tax planning is more important probably for a lot of folks because of in terms of certain assets that you may have while you're living that may have a low cost basis, which means that, you know, an asset you bought that you bought at a very low price, and it's appreciated over time, and it's a much greater price.

And if you sell that prior to death, you may pay a big capital gains tax.

Now there's, you know, one of the things they didn't do is they didn't take away the step up in cost basis from an income tax perspective.

So that's when you do talk to your team of advisors, also, when you have different assets, you're looking a gift, what makes sense from an income tax perspective?

You know, do I retain this security that I have some equity position, that has a low basis, and maybe give cash?

And, you know, I'm getting older now, I may, I would prefer not to pass away, but if I do pass away, I may get that benefit from an income tax perspective.

So I think, you know, that's a big part of where we see value that we talk to clients, and all the advisors do now, is a little bit more emphasis on income tax planning than the estate side as Sara said, you know, $30 million, that's pretty significant estate sizes, so, I just wanted to point that out, 'cause I do have clients that are asking, did anything change with step up in tax basis at death?

And the answer is no.

Yeah, it's always funny the amount of, I don't know that there are rumors, but the amount of speculation that goes on when anything like this is coming up, oh, this is gonna change, and this is gonna change, and I don't know if that's just a culmination of, everybody just, you know, chattering and, or if someone has actually said who's actually in that writing position, have they really said that?

And that's where it gets, that's where it all starts, but I like it when it's final.

You know, the number of drafts that we get, you know, I read, I kind of read highlights of those, I never get too hung up on anything that comes out in any particular proposal, because I know it's gonna change a thousand times before it's done, and I just don't have enough brain cells to remember everything that's in every single one of those drafts, so yeah, we kind of got no, you know, here are some of these things, but it's always good when it's done.

So Kristin, let's talk a little bit about probate assets.

So you have passed away, you have probate assets, what did David mentioned a couple before, but what is it that, what is, what isn't, why is everyone afraid of it?

Is it such a horrible beast that everyone kind of fears?

Yeah, I'm glad you brought this up, 'cause we have mentioned probate a couple of times, so I think it's good to clarify.

So probate is the process by which you put assets that you own in your own name only, and you don't have a way to automatically transfer them.

So they don't have a beneficiary, they don't have a joint survivor owner, they don't have what's called a transfer on death designee, they aren't in a trust, they're just in your name, they don't have any of those things.

Those are the assets that will become your probate assets, part of your probate estate.

And probate requires going to the county probate court, opening up a case depending on the amount of probate assets.

So it's only, you know, you're only worried about what's in probate.

So if you have $20 million but you only have $20,000 that's going through probate, then for probate purposes you're only dealing with that $20,000.

There's different levels of probate.

It's very time intensive, it's public, it's, you can go on most county court websites and do case searches and pull people up and see their whole docket of what they had, and again, it's only the probate.

So that's why people sort of like to avoid it.

So it's often, you know, avoiding probate is often something that we talk about certainly as we're doing someone's estate planning.

And as Adonis and people said earlier, your will really is only governing that probate property.

So in an ideal world, you have a will that you never even use, and you might have someone named as executor who never actually serves in that role, because there is no probate.

So although you name someone as executor in your will document, they aren't technically your executor unless they are appointed by the probate court during that probate process.

So that's kind of just something to think about too, that, you know, people like to avoid probate 'cause it is expensive, and time consuming, and very paper intensive, and it's a long process just sort of by nature.

So, you can avoid it in all of those other ways.

Yeah, that's great.

That's great, because you do hear it, that is everyone's fear.

And I guess that's kind of how you hear some of these, like, of course everybody wants to know the gossip on all the famous people that everything gets posted, and all that sort of thing.

So, it's not horrible, -it's just small... -- No, I mean, if you have to go through it, it's not the end of the world, but if you can't avoid it, that's more ideal.

Okay, that's great.

So let's kind of go back to this A, B, C thing that we started off with.

The advisors, the beneficiaries, and the communications.

So from an advisory team, who needs to be involved, and at what point in your life do they get involved, and do they have to stay?

You know, is if you pick someone today to draft your will, do they have to be the only person that deals with that from here on out?

So I don't know who's up next, but who would like to field that one?

I'll field it, I mean, I think there's something to be said for retaining the same advisors for a long period of time, I think, but there's a caveat to that, is you have to trust them.

And I think that's the key that, you have to trust them, and they gotta have the expertise in the area.

So one of the things with attorneys, what I love, these two are attorneys, is they specialize in this area.

So they go in the office every single day, and that's the only thing they do.

And so they're gonna be well versed in virtually every single scenario that they're gonna need to advise on in this subject.

And I think that's very important.

And so that's somebody you can trust, and somebody that has that expertise.

And I think that's somebody that you can stay with for a long period of time.

I think, you know, another one is a wealth advisor.

Financial planning, you know, picking a firm, or person, or company that has that expertise in all these different areas, you know, it's more than just financial and investments, but it could be tax, it could be estate planning, you know, there's just a lot of things going on, building that relationship, and I think that relationship is very important, could last a long period of time as well.

But once again, you have to trust them to be giving you the right advice, so make sure you're hiring a fiduciary, somebody that's looking at you, and what your needs are first, rather than what the goals that maybe they have internally.

But if you start losing that trust, then there's no harm in switching.

Just do your research, and, you know, talk to your friends, talk to other professionals in the area, and that's the best way to do it, you know, who are your friends using, how long have they been using them, what kind of services are they getting, how much does it cost?

Do they trust them?

You know, and I think those are, that's kind of the key to that question.

Yeah, and I think that's a great advice.

And you know, when you start looking, you may wind up, and I hear this a lot when when someone comes to me, three people gave me your name.

So at that point I knew that that was the decision I needed to make, it came up enough.

So, it is very, very important to make sure that it is, it is a trusted source.

Yeah, and you know, talking about money amongst your friends can be awkward.

But you don't have to tell them how much you have, you know.

You can just say, Hey, are you using, who you are using to do your estate plan?

Well, you don't have an estate plan, well, I mean, maybe you should get one.

Let's go together and figure it out, right?

Or, you know, maybe they have a good referral for you.

I mean, that is the best approach.

Don't be afraid, you can talk at it at a high level, but it never hurts to ask.

And don't be afraid to interview advisors either.

It needs to be a good fit for you.

It needs to be someone that you feel comfortable with, and that is actually listening to what your personal goals are, and not sort of to trying to slot you in, oh, you're a retired teacher and you have X dollars, and so you must need A, B, C. Everyone is different.

You know, I sort of joke with my clients as an estate planning attorney when I meet them the first time, I'm gonna break all the rules of the social contract when I meet them.

I'm gonna ask them how much money they have, do we like everyone in our family, does your daughter-in-law drink a little too much, do you think your son's gonna get divorced, what's going on here, and how do you wanna die?

We're going to get close really fast.

And so you have to be able to feel like you can talk to me honestly, because I'm not serving you well if you're not comfortable sharing whatever concerns or issues you have.

Your advisor should be willing to meet with you and talk with you as much as it takes for you to feel comfortable, because you're signing documents that are very important, and could be in effect for years and years and years.

Because look, if any of us knew when we were gonna die, we'd be talking to Oprah right now instead of sitting where we are.

And so, you have to plan for the worst, and you have to have the people around you that you trust to help you plan for the worst.

And so don't, you know, all of us have been hired and all of us have been fired, and that's okay.

That's the nature of advisory work.

We're not always a great fit for every single person.

But you have the power as the client to figure out what works with you, and who works with you.

So don't be afraid to ask as many questions as you feel like you need to.

It is very personal, very personal.

So how about beneficiaries?

You know, when you pick a beneficiary or an alternate, and in what cases would you want to make sure that there is also an alternate, and what does that mean instead of just a primary versus alternate?

-Adonis?

-Yeah, sure.

Yeah, beneficiaries, it's really, you know, who do you wanna leave your estate to?

Who is it, is it an individual, is it a charity?

And what's the best way to have those assets distributed to them?

You know, I have clients that are always asking, how should I leave money to my child, and so forth, and I said, it's a personal decision, right?

And let's think about your kids, understand your kids, you know, do you want them to have money outright upon passing?

Do you want to have it in front of a trustee, do you want to protect those assets for them?

Because we can structure it that way, but really at certain ages, or, you know, some kids have substance abuse, or special needs issues, and there's ways to plan for that.

So really when it comes to like, your will and your trust is, who do you want to, who do you want to leave it to?

Individuals, charities, and what's the best way to leave it to them?

In terms of beneficiary designations, that's when we often talk to clients about alternatives, and is that also applicable in the will, in the trust context as well.

But for example, you know, IRAs, life insurance policies, things of that nature that have a beneficiary designation, which we may want to sidestep or avoid probate, right?

And we name a specific individual, or maybe it's a charity also, but when it comes to the beneficiary sort of designation, it's a specific, there's not as much flexibility that you have in a beneficiary designation, unless you make it payable to your trust, that you may have in a trust, right?

So you may have my kids and equal shares, well what if one of the kids passes away?

What do you want it, how do you want that to be distributed?

Or do you want it to go to the other kids, do you want it to go down the bloodline?

Those are sort of the discussions that we have.

Or if it's, you know, maybe you don't have kids, and you're looking to distribute those assets to non-family members, it's like, you name a specific individual, well if they pass, they're not there at that moment, where do you want the assets to go?

So it's very critical in terms of proper beneficiary designations that reflect your wishes.

But it's really when we talk to clients is, let's look at all your assets, let's look at, how are they titled?

Because title is gonna control how assets are distributed.

You know, we joint and survivorship, beneficiary designation, transfer on death, you know, all of these have been mentioned, but- And you always wanna look at worst case scenario situations, or contingency sort of plans, like if, you know, that's what us advisors, we're trained to think, what happens if something unfortunate or unforeseen happens?

So we help clients think through those.

But beneficiary designations are critical on bank accounts, retirement accounts, real estate, whatever it may be.

And those are things you really wanna inventory your assets, and look at every asset, and see how they're all titled, and where it's ultimately gonna go.

And make sure they're consistent with the estate plan.

You know, I'm seeing more and more litigation where you've got this estate plan, this will saying, I want everything to go to my son Jimmy, but the life insurance policy has a beneficiary designation saying it's all gonna go to Sally, and it just wasn't updated after the estate plan was created.

Well guess who's gonna get that life insurance policy?

It's not gonna be Jimmy, it's gonna be Sally.

And so I know most attorneys, and I know I'm pretty sure both of you do this, but, you have clients come in, and they do the estate plan, and they sign all the documents, then there's this second step.

And the second step is that review of the assets to make sure they line up with the estate plan.

And that is just as crucial as getting those documents in place.

-Absolutely.

-Yep.

-Absolutely.

-Yep.

And I think actually David, you touched on it before, but the communication, just make sure whomever it is that you have in these roles, they know.

I mean, sometimes I guess from a beneficiary perspective, you may not wanna let people know that they're, you know, you may get off a little bit sooner than what you had anticipated, but make sure you know from an executor perspective, a trustee perspective, make sure you're having those conversations, somebody knows.

Somebody knows where the passwords are found, because now you know, there's all the social media stuff, and there's all these passwords, you can't shut down somebody's social media account if you don't have their password, you can't get in there.

So those are some other things to make sure, and again, I'm sure when you guys are going through all those things, that's part of the checklist to make sure all that's handled.

But again, communication as in life, is crucial to everything, so just make sure that in this situation you're doing the same thing.

And I ask you if please, please, please, do not keep your original will in a safe deposit box that only and your spouse can get into.

Please, please, please.

Please make sure that people other than you and your spouse know where your original documents are kept, even if you just send your kids an email and say, save this for a rainy day, or if I get hit by a bus, this is where they are, they're top right hand of the file cabinet, you know, password's 12345.

Make sure that people other than you and your spouse know where things are.

And don't ever count on that, I get a call at least once a week from someone who's lost a loved one that says, do you know where X is?

Well, no, I do not.

You know, your attorney may keep it, your financial advisor may keep your originals, don't be afraid to take advantage of free services that are a benefit of your role as a client.

You know, we keep things in a giant fire safe, we have indexes, we have lists.

If I get hit by a bus, 10 other people are gonna know where your original will is.

So don't be afraid, and you know, I always send doc, clients that use email, they get a scanned copy of their documents as well.

Forward that email onto your kids, or people that you would want to have copies of these things so that they know you signed them, they know they exist, and they know who you worked with to sign these things.

Because if you've been in a situation with a loved one, where someone does have a medical issue or something like that, the worst thing in the world is feeling like you're scrambling for papers, you have no idea where they are, and you have no idea where to start.

You have to make a thousand decisions quickly.

And so remove some of the fraught, things that can happen, and make sure other people know where things are, don't just rely on one another to take care of things.

Yeah, and I think you could even go a step further, I know we do a lot of family meetings with clients, where our clients will bring in their children, and we will walk through the estate plan with them.

But we also might bring in the attorney, we might also bring in the accountant, or any other professional that they could be working with, so that those children or those family members, not only do they know a plan is in place, but they've had a personal introduction to the representatives or the experts advising mom and dad.

And I think that's extremely helpful as well.

So yeah, I mean it can be an awkward conversation to have, but it is a very important one.

-Yep, I agree.

-The more communication, the less chance there's gonna be some issues after the fact.

So we'll talk about this in a little bit, but CET will be providing this estate planning guide, it's just basically fill out your basic information where things are, who needs to know what, all of that kind of information, but we'll talk about this in a little bit.

Right now, we're up to questions.

So is there anyone in the audience that has a question?

Don't be shy.

If you're online, if you're joining us online, please use the button below the video to submit your questions, and then we'll do those after we do the live audience questions.

Anyone can take a step right up here if you would like to ask.

Have your moment, yes.

Yeah, that's fine.

Thank you.

Okay, this is Caroline from Cincinnati, what is the tax situation when our kids inherit our IRAs, and is there any way to avoid what these taxes may be?

Donate it to charity.

(audience laughing) -Like CET.

-CET.

It depends on what kind of IRA it is.

If it's a Roth IRA, you've paid the taxes on the assets already.

And so distributions that get made to your kids will come to them tax free.

If it is not a Roth IRA, then your kids are gonna get a tax bill as they take distributions.

There's not a lot of way around it, and they have to take the distributions now within a certain amount of time.

Some of it depends on their age, and your age, and all of that, but let's say a 10 year framework.

You can't drag out the distributions for the next 40 years, for example.

So I wish there was a magic bullet.

All of us are tax professionals in one way or another, and there's not an easy answer to that.

The one thing that we do with a lot of clients is, if they have a set amount that they want to give to charity, what we'll do is we'll actually carve off that portion, and then name that charity is the beneficiary of an IRA.

And so what that does, the charity doesn't pay any tax on that distribution of the IRA, but if it were to gone to an individual, there would've been a tax on it.

And so what that does is not only gives the charity a dollar for dollar contribution, but then it also essentially gives all the other beneficiaries more money, because there's less tax being paid.

So you can kind of work in with it a little bit that way as well.

And that kind of jumps off on the planned giving idea, I think a lot of people think planned giving, or charitable giving at death has to be big numbers, commas, and lots of zeros.

Every charity in the world will be happy to take your a hundred dollars distribution, your a thousand dollars distribution.

Don't think it has to be giant numbers just to be a planned gift.

It does not.

So, you know, if you gave CET $75 every year you're alive, they're happy to get a $75 check at your passing.

So, you know, think about what the causes are that are important to you, and don't be afraid to use things like IRAs to make those charitable gifts at your passing.

And just a quick point too, while you're alive, you also can make use of what's called a qualified charitable distribution, so a QCD.

So if you, when you need to take, actually even before you need to take an RMD, or a required minimum distribution starting at 70.5, you can use those assets, and if they go directly from your custodian to the charity, that does not count as part of your taxable income.

So it can be part of your required minimum distribution if you have one, or if you don't, you can still just give it to charity up to a certain amount a year that's indexed for inflation, but that doesn't count as part of your taxable income, and goes right to the charity as well.

So that's a way to kind of minimize income tax during your life if you're charitably inclined.

Right, yep, all great ideas.

Does the executor of a will have to live in the same state that you do?

Not necessarily.

I mean, it can kind of depend on state law and things, but generally if someone is named in your document, then they typically do not have to live in the same state as you.

Sometimes it depends on that state's laws, and it can be a little bit tricky, but if they are named in your will, generally speaking, no, probably not, no.

It's trickier for someone who lives internationally.

Please make it in be like, someone that lives in the United States And yeah, and if they are not, if someone is not named and trying to apply, then yes they must, like in Ohio, they must live in Ohio in that case.

But if they're named, typically they can reside outta state.

Okay, fantastic.

We're getting lots of questions, which is wonderful, that's great.

This is from Dana, how do you place property in a trust that currently has a mortgage?

Also, can your home be put under an LLC and a trust?

(audience laughing) So, the short answer, yes.

So you can, most mortgage companies, I have knock on wood, yet to run across a mortgage company that had a problem with someone transferring a title to their home, to a trust, because you're still on the hook to pay the mortgage as individuals.

It's not relieved you of any obligation on the note.

So one way to kinda keep your house outta probate, is to make a trust the owner of your home, or any other kind of property.

Holding property in an LLC has a lot of different benefits.

If you have rental property, you're absolutely being an LLC, things like that, and a trust can be a member of an LLC.

And so if you really wanna get kind of nesting legal structures, you can absolutely have a trust be a member of an LLC that owns property.

You know, there's a lot of different ways to do that.

If you're going to do that, please have someone with legal knowledge help you sort through that, because it can be very complicated, not only from a logistics perspective, but also from a tax perspective to make sure all of the proprieties are observed because, if you're putting property in an LLC to limit your liability, and you're also putting property in a trust for asset protection, there are reasons you're doing that, and it's really important to make sure all the proprieties are observed.

Don't just sort of, you know, like, oh it takes $15, and I'll just type it up on the Secretary of State website, please don't do that.

Please hire someone to help you sort through that.

Yeah, I think if you're looking at personal use property in particular, you gotta be cautious in terms of, whether you would actually get any benefit from asset protection, or credit or protection if you try to form a business entity that's really being used for personal purposes.

So that yeah, it is critical that you, and there's a lot of tax implications in terms of trust and grantor trust, non-grantor trust, et cetera.

So it is really critical that you talk to your advisors from an asset protection perspective, whatever your goal is, if you're trying to benefit from income tax purposes, if it's personal used property, a residence you don't want to lose, certain exemptions you may have under the tax code if you sell property, 'cause you put it an entity that has some adverse income tax implications to it.

So yeah, it can get very complicated, but you can do all those, you can put virtually anything into a trust.

-Yes.

-Yes.

Just talk about expertise real quick, just there are so many online resources out there, legal zoom, will and trust that just say, hey, it's 199 bucks and you can get this done.

Be very careful, very, very careful.

'Cause a lot of times what I've seen with experience with those, the situation's often worse than what it was before.

And the cost to fix it after death is so much more greater and higher than it is to pay somebody and get that upfront expertise, that in my opinion, and I know I'm very biased here, it is a no-brainer to go and to meet with somebody and get the right advice from somebody who does it day in and day out, even though you are gonna have to pay -a little bit more today.

-I second that, yes.

Because we do have so many questions in-house, and we have quite a few that have come in online as well, we'll all stick around, and certainly catch up with everyone who has submitted a question in-house and answer your questions directly.

But I do wanna make sure that we have an opportunity to get to some of the online questions too.

So if you have submitted a card, and I did not read your question, please come up after the program is over, and we're happy to address your questions.

So the first online question we have is, as a single person having put my sister as a joint owner on my property deed, there is no mortgage and it's owned in full, will probate be required?

So, short answer, probably not, if you have put it in true joint with right of survivorship.

So there are different types of joint ownership, sometimes you can create what's called a tenant in common, where you each own one half interest, and that would be probatable potentially, your half interest.

So if you've done it joint with survivorship, so this is kind of where we're getting to what we've sort of all been hitting on.

Be sure you're consulting a qualified person to assist you with this type of thing.

There are other implications as well, like you're potentially making a gift to your sister, you know, there's other things to think about.

So short answer, if it joint started survivorship, it will avoid probate, but there's a lot of things to consider so, you know, get with a qualified attorney, et cetera.

Yeah, because those legal terms, I mean they can be very confusing, can you Google it?

Absolutely.

Is it the right answer?

Not always.

So be very careful.

Yeah, this is one that has a slippery slope of potentially leading to results that probably weren't intended.

I mean now sister has to sell it and, you know, sign off any sale in the future, which may not have been the original intent.

When the original owner dies, sister is potentially gonna be the owner of the property, maybe this person has children, you know, and that's where they would want it to go.

So this is just kind of a point we nailed on, is expertise is very important.

Yeah, and just a follow up too is, you know what a lot of people don't consider is the liability side of naming joint owners.

You know, you're well intentioned in terms of what you're trying to accomplish, but, if the joint owner has some liability issue, some risk issue out there, potentially subjects that property to the creditors, so you can get some unintended results.

-Yep, so very good point.

-Something as simple as that is there's a lot of consideration that goes in those decisions.

Yes, yes, another good point.

Next question.

My sister is my beneficiary, my only non-liquid assets are a car and a condo.

Can I name my sister as co-owner, so they don't go through probate?

In Ohio, I would say to someone to avoid a lot of the things we were just speaking about, you can do a transfer on death designation for those assets.

You can do that with a vehicle, you can do that with real estate, in Ohio.

Now that's not gonna be the same in every state, but in Ohio, that would be my suggestion to again, avoid all of those gifting liability, like all of those issues we were just mentioning.

And you could still achieve the same result -and avoid probate.

-Yep, that's great.

What is the best way to title property, house, car, bank accounts, et cetera, to minimize complications on the passing of one's spouse?

You probably hold a lot of your accounts as joint owners.

You would want, like for your car for example, you want the title to say John and Jane Smith, not John, or Jane- Oh, I'm sorry, I said it the wrong way.

You wanted to say John or Jane Smith, not John and Jane Smith because then both of you have to be alive to transfer something.

So there are different ways to do it, but most of your house, if you bought the house when you were married, chances are, you have it, it's like we said, joint tenants with right of survivorship, and so upon the death of the first spouse, it automatically goes to the surviving spouse.

That's the kind of language, you wanna be a joint owner of an account, joint holder of an account, all those kinds of things.

You don't want to be a power of attorney or something like that, a power of attorney stops when someone dies.

So part of it with a spouse, for the first spouse to pass is usually, the first spouse to pass has a very small estate, anything else, because, if you've been married a long time, you own everything together.

But usually cars are kind of a random area that, maybe one spouse has a car, they got a wild hair, and they were the one that bought it, and they always went to put the other spouse on there, but never quite got around to it, because it's a pain to go to the BMV or something like that, so check your car titles is really the only odd one.

Yeah, and then there might be an asset that only one spouse could technically own, which, so like a 401(K), or like an IRA.

In that case, just make sure that the surviving spouse or the non-owner spouse is the primary beneficiary.

And oftentimes this is where we'll see revocable trust really come into play.

As David said, you wanna make sure all of your assets are aligned according to your estate plan.

And a lot of that can often be taken care of just through having your trust named as a transformed death beneficiary, or have your assets in the name of your trust.

'Cause a lot of times when we talk to clients, they'll talk about, avoiding probate, and you know, they're only looking at the death of the first spouse sometimes, and they don't have that contingent beneficiary in place.

And sometimes you'll have a probate estate, if you didn't change the beneficiary, and the spouse pre-deceased you, then you may have an estate, right?

And part of the goal was to avoid probate.

So a lot of times we'll see the revocable trust will really be the operating instrument to control the assets, and the title goes into the trust, the title of the assets in the name of the trust, or a transfer on death to the trust.

Okay, next question, what happens to my debt, mortgage, credit cards, et cetera, upon my death?

So that's gonna depend on the type of debt, and kind of the facts and circumstances.

So if something is secured like a mortgage, et cetera, I mean those creditors can take that asset as security if that is not paid.

Whereas some kind of unsecured debt, if it is truly just the person who's passed, just the decedent's debt and it wasn't like a joint thing where you're both jointly and sub-reliable or something like that, then again it's gonna be state specific in Ohio, a creditor has six months from someone's date of death to make a valid claim against the estate, and they can only claim against the probate property.

Now we talked about probate earlier, and how you may avoid probate.

So it may be that you have some credit card debt, or some things and they don't really have any assets to go against, technically.

Now then people make a decision sometimes as a family, like they might feel morally obligated to pay that, or something, but legally they don't necessarily have to if they don't make a valid claim.

And that's a whole process with a lot of, some legality there too, so just talk to someone.

Well, and also if you are one of those nice people that feel some moral obligation to pay things, be very, very careful, because you can't prefer one creditor over another, unless you're preserving an estate asset.

So maybe like, oh it was only $200 visa bill, or I know we meant to pay this doctor or whatever, no, no, no.

Like you have to kind of pay everyone, or pay no one.

So be very, very careful about sort of thinking, oh, it's the small or I'll just take care of this, or you know, he really liked the lawn guy, or whatever.

No, talk to a lawyer about what's okay to pay and what's not.

Again, worth the weight in gold for what you pay for the professional advice that you get from the attorneys and all your advisors.

-Yeah.

-Next question.

When is a trust necessary to leave a house to dependents and will it transfer on death?

The first part is no, a trust is not necessary to leave a house to your dependents.

You can transfer a house to a trust at any time.

You can do it the day after you buy a new house, the next day you can sign another deed that says, we're transferring it from our personal names to this trust.

And the trust becomes the owner, and the trust is sort of its own legal entity, it may have its own tax ID number, you know, all those kinds of things.

Then the trust is the owner and that survives your death.

And then the house would pass according to the terms of your trust.

So it's not required, but it's one way you can leave a house to dependents.

Okay, the next question is, I've revised my estate plan three times.

Do I need to keep anything from previous plans?

Durable power of attorneys, healthcare power of attorneys, wills or trust?

I would say if you're working with an attorney, they're often keeping old versions anyway.

I think powers of attorney are less important, 'cause typically you are kind of overriding those with your new ones.

Wills and trust, again, your attorneys are gonna keep those.

We would keep those as attorneys for sure, now I think it can get confusing for clients to have 19 different versions.

But we would typically definitely keep those, if there was ever an issue, some kind of will contest, someone contesting the trust, so you could go back and see previous versions, to possibly show like this has been in there through all these iterations, or this wasn't something that they were, you know, someone crammed in at the last minute when they were dying, or something like that.

So there'd be reasons to keep it.

But as a client I think you can typically sort of keep your most up to date set of documents.

And as it relates to trust, oftentimes you'll see amendments and restatements, and you may have beneficiary designations that reference a trust from 20 years ago, and you just restated or updated your trust currently, but the assets is referencing an old trust, so it is probably helpful from a trust perspective to have that line, that lineage of trust that you have in place as it relates to making sure chronologically all those documents are in order.

Right, good.

No one likes to get rid of things.

(panelists laughing) Does the power of attorney end when a person dies?

Like money existing, and all of the sudden not available?

-That, yes.

-Yeah.

Yes, and a lot of people don't know that.

As soon as a bank knows that the person you have a power of attorney for has passed away, if they are the only name on the account, that account is frozen until you have a court order saying to release it.

If you are on, if you were just someone's power of attorney, that's how you're, if you sign a check written on their account as Sara Elrod Ruml, power of attorney, POA, something like that, your power to do that stops when the person dies.

If you are on the account as like a joint owner like we talked about earlier, then that money is yours when the person passes away.

And that may be what someone intends like, Hey, I've got money in here, I need you to pay the funeral home, I wanna make sure we have a big party, I wanna do this, that and the other, pay the electric bill.

Or you may be like, I didn't want you to have that money, like that's supposed to go to my estate, and so that's when the money actually can get touched again.

So don't necessarily think a power of attorney means you're gonna be able to write checks after someone dies, because it does not, it should not.

I do think that catches people off guard, that suddenly that bank account is shut down.

I don't know how the banks find out, but they know like immediately, I'm not sure what that line of communication is, but it's good.

But the person who does have the ability to access is the executor.

-Yes.

-So, you know.

It's not locked down forever, you haven't lost the money.

But don't think that the day after someone dies, that you can write a check on their account, as power of attorney, 'cause that's fraud, that's a no.

And sometimes we'll talk to clients, 'cause there is that interim period where it gets frozen, you need an executor named, you know, maybe you have a joint account or a transfer on death that has some operating cash in it for it to be practical for surviving spouse, maybe a kid that's been helping out whatever, there's sometimes you'll see you need a little bridge, and maybe you'll have a side checking account that you know that'll continue until an executor's named.

Yes, yes, very good point.

Okay, we have another question, this one is from a Kentucky.

In Kentucky our inheritance taxes apply to inheritances from Roth IRAs?

(laughing) Technically, it should be.

As a practical matter, are they always?

No.

Because Kentucky is relying on the good faith of professional advisors to report inheritance tax issues, and also the executor to report it.

As far as Kentucky is concerned, they would not know anything about a Roth IRA passing to a named beneficiary, because it's not going through probate, and it's not an asset that they have any control over.

So there would really be no inheritance tax that gets paid if you left a Roth IRA to your nephew, or somebody like that.

If you leave it, if a trustee gets more complicated, and you're supposed to report all of that.

But it's really your good faith reporting.

And so people that are not scrupulous advisors in Kentucky will play fast and loose with that.

So I don't do that, I don't advise people to do that, but people get a little squishy about who is a close relative sometimes when a Kentucky heritage tax comes due.

And I think we've taken care of every online question that we had.

If you have them, please go ahead and submit, so we'll jump back to the in-house questions that we received.

This is from Dana, what is the timeline for establishing a trust?

And how long does it take to create one, and on average, what is the cost?

Timeline can be pretty quick, assuming that your lawyer has the time to do it, and that you are ready to do it when you meet with the lawyers pretty early on.

They're not complicated, revocable trust are doing just that, you can revoke them, amend them, change them, as long as you're alive.

I encourage people to revisit their estate planning documents every few years to make sure you still like everybody in there, to make sure all the people you name in there are still alive, all those kinds of things.

You have major life changes, you have a new baby, you have a death in the family, all those things, you need to revisit your estate planning documents, that includes your trust.

Cost for a trust depends on a lot of factors.

I can quote a client sort of a range, what I think it will cost, and I'll say, you know, this includes X number of meetings, and this and that.

If we have six meetings, to change the placement of a comma, it costs more.

If we have sort of two meetings and this and that, I can tell you what it's gonna cost upfront.

So it really just depends on how complicated you want the trust to be, and you know, your personal situation to sort of figure out what an appropriate fee would be.

And you can always say no, that's not a good fit for me at this point, because you can always set up a trust at some future point.

It's not sort of, you have to do it at a certain time to make it more valid or something like that.

And Adonis, how about this one for you?

Is there a difference between a financial power of attorney and a durable power of attorney?

Yeah, it is a great question, we have that often they ask, but, a financial power of attorney and a durable power of attorney are normally, from my experience, you looking in from the financial context of things, durable really means it survives capacity, that's what the word durable normally means.

So what does that mean is, if you have a financial power of attorney, and you want your agent to act or your attorney in fact, for you during your lifetime, which also includes incapacity or when you become incompetent, you wanna have the durable language that's included in a financial power of attorney, then it becomes a durable power of attorney at that point in time, that means it survives your incapacity, and your agent is still has the ability to make financial transactions on your behalf.

Perfect.

David, this one's for you.

What if your IRA consists of stock?

I'm assuming that that question then leads to, and I have to make distributions out of my IRA?

-Yeah, I mean it... -Maybe I'm wrong.

Yeah, I guess it's tough to answer, 'cause I'm not real sure what the context of the question is, but most IRAs are going to own stock, or mutual funds, or ETFs or some type of investment vehicle.

Those would be sold and then cash distributed out.

But you know, Adonis talked about this capital gains tax, that would not apply in this IRA context.

The entire amount, or the worth of that stock that is sold, that's distributed out, it's ordinary income, and it's every dollar of that is taxed, that's your personal tax rate.

So it works a little bit differently than like your standard brokerage account, which would have stocks, but when they're sold, the tax is only on the difference between what you bought it for, and what you sold it for.

So I hope that answers the question.

If not, I'm sure the audience member who provided that question can check with us afterwards.

Let's see here.

Kristin, living will, health or healthcare power of attorney, same thing?

No, a little bit different.

So a living will is governing some end of life decisions.

So it basically is governing, if you are permanently unconscious, or you have a terminal condition, you're right at the end of your life, sort of what your wishes are in that various limited context.

It doesn't really name anyone to act on your behalf, you do list in the document people to be contacted if the doctor has that document and determines, yes, we're going to now act under this, but you're not actually naming anyone to act for you, like you are in the healthcare power.

So the healthcare is where you're actually naming an agent to act on your behalf for healthcare decisions if you cannot make those decisions yourself.

So they're both healthcare documents, but they're just a little bit governing a little bit different things.

In Kentucky, it might just be called a living will and not a healthcare power of attorney, and the Kentucky document would include who you want to make decisions, and then Kentucky allows you to state your preferences about end of life care, organ donation, and whether you want your surrogate to be able to sort of override your decisions, understanding that there's a difference between a doctor saying you need to be in a coma for two days while you heal versus you're gonna be in, this person's gonna be in a coma for the rest of their life, what do you want to do?

And so in Kentucky it's not binding, like a do not resuscitate order, it's just states your preferences.

So if you have strong preferences about end of life questions, you should explore something like a do not resuscitate.

The living will in Ohio kind of has more of an effect of a do not resuscitate order, and so, it's also important to sort of be aware of the nuances of your particular state as far as, if you have strong feelings about these things, make sure that your wishes get honored, and make sure you've got the right documents in place.

We do get that a lot too though, and a do not resuscitate is something that a doctor has to actually put on, right?

It's not something that an attorney does.

So I get that question a lot, like, is this a DNR, can you do an DNR?

That's a separate thing that your doctor puts on your chart.

But these healthcare powers attorney, living wills, to Sara's point, every state is slightly different, and so that's where that expertise really comes in.

Yep.

I have a little bit left on this question, and then one more, and then I think we're coming to the end of it.

Can I set up a trust for your home, which I think we probably have addressed that one in a previous question, or can you put your 401(K) in a trust?

Sorry, so, a 401(K) cannot be owned by a trust, but a trust can be the beneficiary of your 401(K).

A trust can own other kinds, like a trust can own a brokerage account, it can own a money market account, something like that, but a trust cannot be the account holder of your 401(K), it can only be the beneficiary.

But a hundred percent you can make a trust the beneficiary of your 401(K).

Perfect, okay, last one, guys ready?

Is it best to annuitize or request an RMD?

So I think in the theme of all of our prior seminars when we have done this, it depends.

So it is, that is a very unique answer for your situation.

And I don't think, I mean, I think all of us would have to know what is going on in order to answer that question.

So unfortunately, sorry.

What thoughtful questions our viewers and in studio guests have presented to us.

A staff member will be in touch.

If you'd like to receive one of these booklets that I mentioned before, again, it has some great information in it, you know, where are your holdings, your bank accounts, your investment accounts, who are your advisors?

Because a lot of times if somebody's coming in, they don't know that you use David, he's your guy, they don't necessarily know that.

So having all that information in one place is very nice.

So we have it in paper, and we also have it electronic.

So when someone reaches out out to you, if you're interested, please absolutely let them know, and they'll get something sent out to you so that you have that.

And to wrap up the event, back to Kitty.

Okay.

So that concludes our estate planning discussion.

Thank you to Jami, Kristin, Sara, David, Adonis for your time and expertise.

And thank you all for joining us as well in the studio and as well online.

For additional information on Planned Giving, please visit cetconnect.org, or think tv.org, and we hope you plant the seed for your family, for yourself, and your legacy.

Thanks and have a great rest of the day.

(audience applauding)