- Ann Thompson: Hello to you at home or wherever you're watching or listening from with me in the studio today, our council member Jeff Cramerding and Dayton City Commissioner Shenise Turner-Sloss.

Welcome to Brick By Brick.

Thank - You.

It's great to be here.

- As you know, people are suffering in terms of trying to find affordable housing no matter what their income level.

And I know things have been done both in Cincinnati and Dayton, but maybe not enough.

So I wanted to bring you here today to just get the latest information and also as a conversation, just talk amongst ourselves just to find out what has been done.

So again, thanks for being here.

And city commissioner, I'll start with you.

If you could describe the state of housing in Dayton.

- Shenise Turner-Sloss: Well, like any other city across the state of Ohio, we are dealing with the challenges of the housing crisis.

But I have to back up.

A lot of people negate the fact that we are still recovering from the economic downturn.

In 2008, we were hit very hard by predatory lending the foreclosure crisis, as well as a lot of manufacturing jobs that left the Dayton area.

So when you have what we're seeing right now in the housing crisis, again, it has been exasperated by a number of things.

COVID-19, there were a number of tornadoes that blew through our area.

So we're trying to right size our community all the while dealing with a number of dilapidated abandoned properties that we have throughout the city of Dayton.

- I'm glad you brought that up.

- Yes, because - You're certainly dealing with a lot.

- We are dealing with a lot as well as the growing unhoused population that we're seeing in this city of Dayton.

And I will add too, where we're finding it out as a number of things.

One, some of the people that we're seeing in our community, they're not necessarily from the Dayton community, we're also seeing that with the, the crisis of mental health as being a major issue in a Dayton area, many people, they do not want the services.

They do not want the help.

And so you have those competing forces that we're dealing with the shortages of housing stock that we have available, let alone the quality of housing that we have in the city of Dayton.

So we're rolling up our sleeves, we're looking at a number of different initiatives.

I was proud to support and, and drafts as well as introduce legislation for the priorities set forth by the Dayton City Commission, looking at how do we really start tackling this issue head on and, and identify, excuse me, the priorities.

And in doing so, we were able to create the housing policy framework, which was unanimously, unanimously approved by all five council members.

And so we're doing everything we need to do.

In addition, I will add the $138 million from the American Rescue Act plan that we receive ARPA dollars, we like to frame it as the dates and recovery dollars.

Out of that $138 million, we were able to utilize $55 million into our neighborhood.

Now that is a drop in the bucket considering all of the issues that we have ongoing.

So those are just some of the things that we're looking at and looking at, again, best practices across the state and beyond.

- Yeah, thank you for that.

And we'll get into some of those things a little bit later.

Council Member Kramer, for a long time you chaired the housing committee, equitable growth in housing.

What are things looking like in Cincinnati in terms of state of housing?

- Yeah, in Cincinnati, we are growing.

People want to move back into the city of Cincinnati after many decades of decline in people moving out of the city.

So we're seeing a reverse, all of that trend.

Many of our neighborhoods are neighbors of, of choice, which are growing quickly, which is a good thing.

But with that comes associated problems.

When people wanna move into a neighborhood, it means rising housing values and rising rents, which are also good things, but it, it does create issues of displacement and, and people no longer being able to afford to live in their neighborhood.

And this is neighborhoods in Cincinnati like Madisonville and, and Kennedy Heights, which are now very, very popular.

So what we need to do is build housing to, to meet that new demand.

I mean, people, people with money are, are gonna move where they want and we need to have housing for those people or else they're gonna be moving to other apartments, other houses and be causing displacement.

- So in the most recent budget then Cincinnati Council allocated 10 and a half million for additional housing.

What does that look like?

- Yes, I mean our, our housing plan is also multifaceted.

We passed our connected communities initiative last year, which makes building housing in Cincinnati easier, especially along our main thoroughfares, our major quarters.

So that makes developing development easier and then providing the cash to make some of these connected communities happen is gonna be very exciting.

So putting 10.5 million in, in, we've got a number of housing projects in the pipeline.

So over the next year we hope to see a number of really new market rate housing communities with, you know, retail underneath.

So we're creating housing and we're also creating catalytic investment in the neighborhoods that need it.

- Yeah, good news.

And we'll talk about connecting communities a little bit later in the conversation.

Commissioner for Dayton, the budget includes about 35 million as efforts to remove blight and repair housing continue.

And then in March, 2024, voters approved issues six, extending a quarter percent income tax renewal, which will bring in an estimated $650,000 per year for eight years for the city to invest in housing.

What's the latest?

- So thank you for bringing that up.

So very excited to add that additional bucket, as we call it, to housing the 650 50,000.

The voters unanimously, I think the, the percent was like 71% of voters supported this income tax levy.

And we are using that as a model, in fact, to leverage the dollars that our land bank was able to receive from the Ohio Department of Development, the $7 million I might add.

So that 650,000 will be used to provide additional housing opportunities and, and options and access to those who are interested in home ownership as well as assisting existing homeowners.

So again, we're trying to, to utilize what we currently have again, so what we are, we have been awarded, whether it's through the state, the federal government.

So we're using those dollars again to address some of the housing concerns throughout the, the city.

- You mentioned the land banks.

So let's talk about that a little bit further.

Ohio awarded Montgomery County the most of any county in Ohio.

Yes.

$7 million to buy and rehabilitate properties for income eligible residents.

I think I was reading that this was for 40 new properties and two dozen to be renovated.

Is there any further information about this?

I don't know if you're still taking bids and when would these be built?

I know this is the county and you're the city.

- Yes, that is correct.

So right now we are in the process of developing the MOU so that we can in fact leverage those dollars to 650,000 over to the land bank too for the additional resources.

So we're in conversation as to what that will look like and also the partners that will be utilized to distribute those funds out into the various communities that are aligned for this particular project.

So we are very excited about it.

As you mentioned, Montgomery County was the largest award of the $7 million.

And we believe that this is the shard in the arm that we need to start getting a number of those dilapidated or dur elect properties back online to provide access to for future home ownership.

- Very good.

Council member Kramer, the zoning changes that were passed this summer, connected communities, you briefly talked about what that is.

I'm wondering what can we expect to see?

So I'm assuming more dense housing and when would that happen?

- It's, it's a, it's a multi-part plan.

The connected communities was the first part to make the development easier, which was very, very important.

Our zoning code was very outdated going back to the 1970s where cities were dying and we changed our zoning code so that the city would look more like the suburbs, single family houses, restaurants with large surface parking lots.

And that strategy of, of making the city look like the suburbs failed because we're not.

So this change connected communities was to go back to our roots, denser housing, retail, restaurants on the bottom, housing on top, less parking requirements and, and and, and putting parking behind buildings so that connected communities makes that possible.

So that was the first step.

The next step is providing the cash incentives to make a lot of these big developments happen in neighborhoods that need development.

You know, things are going very well in the city of Cincinnati and other urban areas, but development is still harder and it still needs an incentive.

So as, as we talked about, we put 10.5 million in during our carryover process, that'll be a bridge.

And we also had the Cincinnati Futures Commission, which we had labor leaders, business leaders, civic leaders looking at the city's budget.

And they identified a need for us and said that they thought a a 0.1% earnings tax is necessary to make this development continue.

So there'll be definitely a lot of talk about that Cincinnati futures and our housing earnings tax this year, which will provide the, the, the financial incentives to really make connected communities happen and build them out.

- That's great.

May I add please?

Yes, please.

We're actually doing the very same thing in terms of updating that zoning code.

'cause you hit the, you hit the nail on the head.

Our zoning code is outdated for about 20 years there.

So we're, again, the staff is, they're very committed.

They're de dedicated, if you will, to updating the zoning code.

We're also looking at, just recently, matter of fact I think it was last week, week before last, we expanded our NUS abatement definition to include vehicles, large drums, outdoor storage, anything that is wasteful, wasteful and harmful to the environment, tires included.

So we're looking at a various mechanisms to address those issues.

And they always say the state of Ohio, we travel in impacts, right?

We always, and many of the municipalities, we follow each other's lead.

And so that's exactly what we're doing.

- That's great.

I'm glad that you were mentioning that because that was actually my next question.

It seems like Dayton has a more low key approach to zoning changes.

They kind of just make things without a one, you know, huge big zoning change.

And I was wondering if density is a key concern or a stabilization.

- Absolutely.

It is a concern across the state.

As you've mentioned, many of us are having those various challenges.

And so we are looking at more of our economic distress and challenging areas.

For instance, we have just expanded our community reinvestment areas to those more distressed areas to entice and increase development to also provide an tax abatement for 15 years over a hundred percent.

So we're trying to find ways to attract developers into the urban core as well as providing those rec mechanisms for our existing homeowners.

- Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that also.

And what about there, isn't there talk of a housing fund too, a trust fund?

- So it's interesting that you brought that up.

So I have been working very diligently to bring that forth.

My hope is that I'll have the support of the rest of the members so that we can get something passed.

The housing trust fund is definitely needed, especially with all of the investment that we're making, the 650,000 that you mentioned with the income tax renewal.

That is an opportunity for us to expand the use of those dollars and to really start addressing these issues that we're seeing in housing, - The community reinvestment areas.

How many areas are there and where are they?

- So they're all throughout the, the city of Dayton, but once upon a time they were very fragmented, if you will.

So what we've decided to do, thanks to our law department as well as our planning and neighborhood development department, the city administration, they're looking at quadrants of the city.

And so right now we just repealed to pass legislation for the community reinvestment area to now include, again, some more of those economically challenged areas that we're not included.

So now again, we're looking at the southwest quadrant of the city, the northwest quadrant of the city, looking at those various areas so that we can make sure that we are expanding those opportunities across the city.

- Let's talk about Cincinnati's housing fund.

So as we alluded to before, for a while there was a chunk of it we couldn't use.

And how will this evolve in the future?

You mentioned that some of this new money is gonna be going to that.

- Yes, $10 million is going right into the, the housing fund, which is administered by our community partner, the Cincinnati Development Fund.

We're very excited.

Our community development staff at City Hall is wonderful, but we found that being able to shift dollars outta city hall, getting them a little farther away from the politics - Exactly.

- Lets the, lets them move more nimbly.

So we look forward to what, what they're gonna do with this next round of money.

And we just are determined to, to keep the money going and to keep these housing projects going with our partner at CDF and our other partners as well.

- Yeah, you were shaking your head, I guess you realize the importance of having partners.

- Absolutely.

They make us do our job better, if you will, and they are a necessary entity and for us to address the various issues that we're having in our community.

Community, excuse me, from the social services, from the housing developers that we have across the city of Dayton and beyond the businesses, our local unions union, excuse me.

So it's an opportunity for us to build those partnerships to address the various issues that we're seeing.

So partnerships are definitely a key.

We have between the, the Montgomery County, Dayton area, habitat for Humanity County Corp, we have just, the list goes on and on in terms of the, the partners that we're seeing and, and East End Community Services.

I cannot negate the work that they're doing in East States and right now.

- So these are all great ideas like housing fund connected communities.

Some people might say, well these solutions are gonna take forever.

Like how am I gonna see, you know, housing people who are struggling to find housing?

And based on reports we've heard over the years, we're short tens of thousands of units.

So what types of housing do you think would make a difference?

Would it be single family homes, middle housing, large scale apartment buildings?

And what are the challenges to each of those?

- In the Cincinnati, our emphasis is going to be on, on larger scale denser developments.

Along the quarters we did pass a transit levee, so our bus system has totally been revamped.

It's much more vital, a lot more frequency, a lot more options for people.

So we think our quarters are a chance to grow and we're talking about mixed use housing, that that's just an opportunity to really provide a, to, to catalyze and change and revitalize the neighborhood.

I mean, we've seen in many neighborhoods, if you get a new restaurant in two, maybe a brewery and housing on top, and it's a new development, people are like, this neighborhood's moving in the right direction.

And when people feel confident in their neighborhood, they, they are willing to stay.

People are gonna move in and people are gonna invest.

So it's those types of projects that we have, have seen, have the most dramatic impact.

I will say that sometimes for people, those are the most scary 'cause they are dense.

Some people have got negative perceptions about apartments, renters and large scale developments.

So we are definitely are going to be overcoming that.

That's why in Cincinnati, these first round of model connected communities that we're gonna be building are gonna be critical.

So people can see that there's success and say, oh, I, I want that in my neighborhood.

- And what do you think about?

- I think that is exactly right, counsel.

And we're doing this exact same thing.

We've saw, we have seen rather, excuse me, a great deal of investment in our core, in our downtown area.

And so now we wanna expand that out into the outer ring into our neighborhoods where people are able to have the backyard, where they're able to have the three and four bedroom home with two and a half bath, right?

We know those things are in place as well as making sure that accessibility is addressed.

Our senior homes, we had a great deal of investment in our senior homes that we've been able to provide with various partnerships through our date and recovery dollars, the upper dollars, the federal dollars that we were able to receive.

So again, it's using those various tools and mechanisms that's just one in our toolbox to address this, the issues that we're having.

But again, just pulling on that thread in reference to the CRA, the community investment areas, expanding those areas and allowing developers and other businesses, whatever have you, to tap into that tax abatement for the 15 years at a hundred percent.

- So we've spoken with developers who sometimes get frustrated about all the red tape that they have to jump through.

And I'm wondering if the cities need to ease that for developers who say that it's too hard to build with lots of restrictions.

- So that's the excuse of every developer, right?

But you have to have, you have to have safeguards in place because at the end of the day, we are, our job is to make sure that we are working in the best interest of, of the residents.

And so we cannot negate or ignore the concerns of our residents on behalf of a developer.

'cause they wanna come in and swallow up all of the parcels, whatever have you, and not meeting the parking variances or the zoning requires, whatever have you.

But we have to learn to work together and, and find that common ground, that compromise so we can address the, the concerns of the residents of the neighborhood as a, as a whole.

But all the while, whole affirm to the developer in their request.

And that's why with a number of our developing agreements, we have clawback clauses that are in place.

Say, if you don't do X, Y, and Z, then these are the repercussions that would take place.

So again, it's a, it's a very delicate balance, if you will.

We want to make dates and attractive, we want developers to come into our area, but all the while we have to be firm, but fair if you will.

In terms of how we're doing business with the developers, - What are some of those clauses?

What are some examples?

- So in terms of, I'll give you a prime example.

With all of the development that we are seeing in downtown dates, and with the arcade beautiful renovation of a, of a beacon, a staple in our community, in the heart of our economic engine downtown, we were able to have in place a community benefit agreements where there is an agreement with our Dayton public school district to provide opportunities for employment, internships, externships, whatever have you.

We also are looking at fair wages and having those employed and those various clauses, making sure that we have just recently, we're in conversation right now and hopefully we'll see that before us making sure we have project labor agreements in place.

So looking at those various things to again, hold our developers accountable, but understanding that we are working for the better interests of our businesses, our residents, our laborers, and those who are doing business in the city as a whole.

- What about Cincinnati and any red tape that developers complain about?

- Yeah, I think it, I think it is a problem in Cincinnati, we're fortunate that we have a model in three CDC, the City Center Development Corporation, which has done tremendous work in over thery.

I mean, it's really been, it would've been unfathomable 20 years ago to to think about over the R and what it looks like today.

So three CDC has done tremendous work.

They have had that balance where they've done tremendous development.

They have kept the community happy.

I mean there's, it's very difficult and you can't never keep everybody happy.

But three c done a good job of community relations.

They are focused on one neighborhood.

So with the city, as we move through this year and talk about economic development and more resources, it's, it's finding a model like that which will be different 'cause this will be working all across the city.

And can we, working with the partners and tools we've in place like the Port, which is very strong like CDF, but, but find that structure where a organization can go into a neighborhood and, and do some heavy lifting and pull off a project and provide that support, get it done, and then move into the next neighborhood.

So that's gonna be a, a topic and, and a reoccurring theme in Cincinnati this year.

- Let's take a step back and talk about preventing homelessness.

Both cities are trying to do it right to counsel is the right for somebody facing eviction, have an attorney.

As you know, there is a pilot program underway in Dayton.

So how is that going?

- It's going very well.

Thank you for, for posing that question.

And in fact, we just had a work session last week, if you will, the early midweek of, of, of October with the number of the partners from Learn to Earn as well as Omega CDC.

The list goes on and on in terms of who are all part of it.

Blue Meridian was one of the major contributors of Phil philanthropists that contributed to this pilot program as well as Stout who's doing a number of the, the, the research and the data collection, if you will.

And now we're at a stage where they are conducting a cost benefit analysis.

There will be 125, it sounds very minute at this state in the game, but again, it is a pilot.

You have to start somewhere.

You have to start somewhere.

So there are 125 families that will be assisted in the northwest quadrant of the city of Dayton.

And that area was identified during, with the, the review of the data and the eviction heat map that indicated that 4 5, 4 0 6 particular zip codes, 0, 6 0 5, as well as zero three were areas where we saw an increase in eviction.

So again, one of the, the, if you will, negative if rhetoric behind right to counsel is that everyone's gonna have an attorney and there is no defense.

Well, there is a process in place, there is a process in place in terms of if you in fact have a defense to receive the, the counsel that is needed before eviction court.

So again, they're identifying the families at this juncture and the hope is that the pilot is a success so that we can expand those areas.

- Yeah.

And it doesn't necessarily mean that people with an attorney are gonna be allowed to stay in their home.

Exactly.

But maybe they don't get an eviction on their record.

- Exactly.

And then we've been able to do something innovative as well with our, our clerk of courts where there is a eviction seal process that we have in place.

So they're working in, in tangent, if you will, together to make sure that they are able to address the, the issues of Yeah.

- And I know you have some mediation too.

We - Have mediation as well.

Yes.

- What's going on in Cincinnati?

I know Cincinnati is maybe moving at a little slower of a pace, but there are things that are happening.

- Oh, absolutely.

No, we are putting more money into, into our ev ev eviction prevention every month our capacity grows, including with our partners at uc law.

So it's a tremendous program.

My colleague Mika Owens has been leading on it and will continue to lead on it.

It's, it's been tremendous and it is so important.

Homelessness touches so many people, but I've got, you know, school aged children and, and when you're in school and, and kids, their friends disappear Yeah.

In the middle of the year and they're like, where, where did they go?

- Yeah.

- And it's almost always a result of housing instability.

Exactly.

Or an eviction.

So it's critically important.

And another thing we've learned is, is historically Ohio 'cause of state law things has been very weak on issues to protect tenants.

And that is a, that some of these very large outta state institutional investors that are often predatory, sought out Ohio as, as an area to make a lot of money.

And in doing so, they created a lot of turnover and created, you know, as I said, sometimes they were predatory and sometimes they took advantage of tenants.

So having these protections in place makes Ohio, makes our cities less vulnerable, these types of institutions that, that sometimes provide substandard housing and substandard living conditions.

- And one of them has a big presence in Dayton.

- Yes, exactly.

I'm, I'm glad you touched on that in terms of our state legislators and the state and the preemption of rent controls, as well as what you said to the tenants protections that we don't have in place.

So you hit the noll on the head and, and finding ways and means to combat those, those barriers that we have across the state.

- Some might argue that capital a affordable housing has been left out of the conversation.

A quarter of the population in southwest Ohio I was reading are severely rent burdened.

And that means that people spend more than 50% of their income on housing.

How can we encourage more subsidized development?

And are you willing to relax the rules and restrictions to streamline city report support for any project that incorporates or qualifies for low income housing tax credit?

- Well, I will tell you from the, the state tax credit, like we are seeing a change in the scoring and the focus where it is more difficult in the urban core.

And so we won't have that, that ability to utilize with the Ohio Housing Financing Agency.

We won't have that ability to tap into the litech, the low income housing tax credits any longer because they're changing the formula, they're changing the model of the scoring.

So that is something that we're going to have to pivot, if you will, and find other ways and mechanisms on how we're going to address this, this issue.

And providing those incentives to our developers in having the various use of mix mixed income units across the various communities.

- That is a challenge.

Your thoughts?

Yeah, - It is a challenge.

I agree with the challenges that our federal partners provide.

We're gonna have to work with them, lobby them, lobby for more flexibility, use some local tools for more flexibility.

So that's part of it.

And in Cincinnati, we, we just need to keep in mind that, that that the more housing we we build, the more the housing crisis will relax.

'cause there are people, again, moving into the city that now have means and they're gonna live here.

And if we do not create housing for them, they're gonna be displacing people.

So with every new unit we create that's alleviating the problem.

To an extent - In Bond Hill, there are going to be a number of apartments that are subsidized gonna be built.

- That's great.

- That would be one example.

- Yeah.

- But you, you're absolutely correct in terms of lobbying and having those conversations at the federal level.

'cause what we have seen in Dayton is we're looking at a projected 16.9% decrease in our community, black rent dollars.

Last year we saw a Greek a decrease, there was a nationwide cut of over 200 million.

This, that was for home.

And for CDBG for 2025, we're looking at a $500 million cut up nationwide.

And so a part of that is because of additional 20 plus communities are now entitlement to, to these funds.

And so as we're looking at the various challenges in getting more properties online, we also have competing forces that we're looking at from the, the cuts from the state, from the federal, as well as the other tight restrictions that we have in place.

When you talk about the tax credits itself or from the Ohio Housing Financing Agency, - As we think through this housing crisis, I'm wondering if you guys are looking at other cities and saying like, oh, they're doing it well.

And so who are you looking at and what are they doing?

- Pittsburgh, have they have a number of models?

I would say we cannot talk about housing if we're not talking about equity, wealth distribution.

And we talk about the history of redlining and when you, when you are looking at the black and brown community.

And so Washington is doing something magnificent in terms of creating a fund, a covenant program they call it.

So they can have low interest loans to assist with down payment assistance as well as the first purchase, the purchase price of the home itself.

So looking at Washington, state of Washington, Pittsburgh, and as I mentioned, Cleveland is doing some innovative things.

Cincinnati is doing some great things.

So again, just modeling after various cities and and across the, the country.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

I, Minneapolis was a big model when we were looking at connected communities that, that, that Minneapolis showed that the changes in zoning can produce new housing.

So that was success.

You know, we were looking at other cities too, trying to decrease regulation and see who's growing faster than us and why.

- I always like to end on a positive, so.

Right.

What gives you hope in Cincinnati and Dayton that we can begin to solve the housing crisis?

- I would say conversations such as this.

A number of people are invested in this conversation.

They're invested in this work, and that's exactly what it's gonna take.

It's going to take work, it's gonna take out of the box thinking and the old way is not necessarily going to be the new way of addressing the issues that we are facing today.

There are a number of issues, as we mentioned through this conversation, from mental health, from wage gap, that, you know, that we're experiencing labor shortages, the housing voucher program, the shortages that we're seeing with that.

And just, people just don't necessarily have the means to maintain a home.

So again, you are starting to, at a whole gamut of issues that we're facing right now, but it is that innovative spirit that you have to have and, and the ability to have these conversations and the ability to problem solve.

Right?

You can't just have conversation and pass legislation.

Always say you gotta have the programming and funding to go along with it.

And so that's exactly what it's gonna take.

- Council number.

- Yeah.

As far as ending on a positive note, I, I started at City Hall as a council aid 25 years ago.

And, and just for years and decades, the population of Cincinnati was decreasing.

And the theme, the mantra was, Cincinnati is dying and you went in city hall every week and Cincinnati is dying.

How are we gonna turn this around?

And you know, this, this didn't start in the nineties, this started in the sixties and seventies.

So for 30 years the city's dying.

So we've turned that around and people are moving back into the city, which is a good thing.

And I think we as cities have not taken the moment to celebrate that and say, you know, we are turning things around.

People are moving back to the city that has created a number of consequences.

Housing rents have gone up.

Yeah, home prices have gone up good and bad.

I mean, when home prices grow up, that's how many people, many, many middle class people accumulate wealth, especially black and brown people, and especially union households.

So those, those increased housing values are a good thing.

But they also come with increased housing and they also come with some displacement.

So with good things, there are bad things that we're grappling with.

So we are dealing with these effects, but overall we are living in a very fortunate time when people are moving back to the city and we're dealing with the side effects as opposed to trying to turn around cities that were dying.

So it's been a very fortunate time to serve on Cincinnati City Council.

- Thanks to both of you for being on Brick by Brick.

Dayton City Commissioner Shanice Turner, Schloss and Cincinnati Council member Jeff Kramer.

Thanks so much.

It's a matter, it's a pleasure.