KITTY: Hi, I'm Kitty Lensman, President and CEO of CET and ThinkTV.

Welcome to our Speaking Grief screening and panel discussion.

Tonight's event is sponsored by the CET Planned Giving Committee.

This group of professional estate planning attorneys, CPAs, and financial planners felt that the topic of grieving is important to anyone who faces a loss.

Death is inevitable, and knowing you're not alone is critical in the healing process.

CET and ThinkTV are grateful for the expertise of tonight's volunteers: Jan Borgman, Neil Fogarty, Sheila Munafo-Kanoza, and Sally Ries.

This group of dedicated individuals will offer a number of regional resources to help you navigate your journey.

Please enjoy the program and use the chat box below.

Ask your questions.

Our experts will answer them live from the studio.

And now, Speaking Grief.

[no audio] [technical difficulty/no audio] [technical difficulty/no audio] [technical difficulty/no audio] [technical difficulty/no audio] [technical difficulty/no audio] BEATRIZ: I would have expected that by the second year it would have been better, but I think it's the opposite.

The first year was a period of numbness.

True emotions don't hit.

The more time passes, the more you realize how permanent it is and that you have to go through each milestone without them.

TOM: You're dealing with your own emotions and thoughts, but you're also looking at the destruction that death wreaks on people that are closest to you, and that's even harder in some cases.

I tend to think of myself as somebody who fixes problems.

But when you run into a scenario or a situation that you can't do anything to fix, it's just a feeling of helplessness.

And I might not have outwardly displayed my own grief.

I think that led to a bit of stress between the two of us.

BEATRIZ: Everyone handles grief in a completely different way.

For my husband, it was this feeling of wanting to fix it.

For me, there were some periods of isolation.

Because my brother died through suicide, I felt almost ashamed and very alone.

And sometimes I just wanted to cry and I wanted to get the emotions out.

And it's very difficult to do that when you have small children.

I had to explain to them that there are some days where I remember my brother and it hurts, and I cry.

And I cry because I love him.

[technical difficulty/no audio] [technical difficulty/no audio] [technical difficulty/no audio] [technical difficulty/no audio] SALLY: And so even sometimes we'll have families call immediately after the death and they'll say, "How can I tell my surviving children what has happened?"

And so often times we can just give them the simple verbiage to use.

You know, "In that moment, you know, your brother was not thinking clearly, or in that moment, mommy just was not, you know, her mind was not working."

Much the same way we would tell families that if someone died from a heart attack, you know, "In that moment, mommy's heart stopped beating."

And so really giving parents the encouragement and just support to be present, also to, you know, allowing them to listen to what their child is asking and let the questions that the children are asking kind of guide the information that they provide.

JAN: Neil, has there been anything, you've been working with families as far as creating memorials that you have found helpful?

NEIL: One thing you find out, especially with a sudden loss like suicide, not only are you dealing with a lot of times the guilt, but there's an overwhelming volume of memories that come surging.

And trying to help families work through all of those memories to focus on a grouping of those memories that can then be converted into something lasting through memorialization, whether that be in stone, whether that be in some type of memorial, a tree, but being able to help them process through that fog and come up with those specific memories that they want to have.

We actually, a good friend of mine in high school, lost a son and we actually created his memorial.

And one of the things that she and I worked, and I actually have a photo of that memorial, is working through all the different things that made her son who he was and who he is.

And by having those conversations, you can ultimately come up with something that represents that person.

And if you don't take the time to sit with the person in their grief, then you will never be able to get to the point where you find that grouping, you can make something that's meaningful to them.

JAN: And I think especially for our families that lose a loved one by suicide, that so many times they talk about that isolation or it's almost like they can't talk about it, as if someone who had a heart attack or cancer, that there seems to be a legitimate, quote unquote, types of deaths and other ones that are less acceptable.

So I think that by being able to encourage our families to talk about a loved one, call them by name, share the stories, because there is something more behind that death, there's a person.

Not necessarily about how they died, but who they were and what do we want to remember?

Is there anything creative that you've recommend with families?

SHEILA: Mine is I always, again, just like what you were just sharing, Jan, is to be able to talk to a family, "Tell me about your child," you know.

And also too to invite people to share the precious memories that their child or their loved one may have made with others.

We've many times have created a scrapbook and we'll have that person's picture and then letters have been written or, you know, or a picture has been shared.

And I think those memories are just so important to a family because it allows them to know how much their loved one was loved.

Because a lot of times people who have died by suicide, they're some of the most dynamic people, you know, and the most caring and loving, you know, and we need to hear that and they need to hear that.

JAN: And I think being able to encourage families to normalize the person, they're not defined by the death.

They're defined by the life that they lived.

And at that moment, they just -- they -- I can't even imagine how much pain somebody would have to be in at that moment to think that death is better than life.

And we know that our loved ones would never want us to experience this type of pain.

So we know that they're not doing it to hurt us, but at that moment, they just can't rationalize what's going on in their own lives.

So, to see the other side of what life would be like with them not being present.

Has there been anything creative, Sally, that you have found from children who have lost a loved one?

SALLY: Sure, sure.

So at Fernside our whole program is based on creativity.

We use expressive arts heavily in the work that we do.

One of the things that we do is we have an activity called the worry board.

It's like a graffiti board.

I think we have a picture that, I'm not sure if we can put that up.

But so one of the things we know is that when children are busy creating or drawing or doing something with their hands, whether they're creating a piece of art or they're sculpting something, that then there's an opportunity to tell their story.

So we use a lot of expressive art activities in our program.

And any time we're doing an expressive art activity with a child, it's not that our goal is to create this finely crafted piece of art, although many times families treasure those.

It's that art becomes the vehicle that allows the child to process their feelings and tell their stories.

Sometimes the work and the activities that we do are individual and sometimes they're done together as a community or as a group.

We have another activity that we do that's called the cracked pot, where we'll take a flower pot and crack it and it breaks into many pieces.

And this becomes symbolic of how, you know, in our lives when we experience a death, everything sort of falls to pieces.

And then we invite the children in the group to write on the inside pieces of the pot what they're feeling on the inside.

And then on the outside pieces of the pot we ask the children or invite them to share what are some things that help them.

And then we will glue the pot back together as a group.

And that becomes symbolic of how, you know, when we're grieving, it's much easier to work together as a group to put the pieces together.

So then we'll talk to the kids a lot about support systems.

You know, who at home is there that you can talk to?

You know, is there a teacher or a coach at school that can be a support to you during your school day?

And obviously, the flower pots get put back together, but they're not the same.

There's always little nooks and crannies and pieces that are missing.

And that becomes very symbolic of, you know, how when we're grieving, we put things back together.

JAN: And that's a great transition.

We have another clip about a family who lost two loved ones in a fire, so if we could watch that clip.

TYANA: TJ was a ball of energy from the beginning to the end.

He was always on the go, and as he's got older, he just got into more and more things.

If he could reach it, he was doing it.

My grandmother, she raised me and she's been my mom.

She would be that person that on many days when I just felt like rock bottom, she would have been there to, like, pick me up, and I lost her too.

I still feel like it's a dream; I'm going to wake up.

STEVEN MICHAEL: I miss the names that he would call me.

When I found out, I was very emotional.

I went down to my knees, started crying.

I loved him so dearly.

Mostly people that don't know me, but knows the death that I went through, they just be like, "Don't cry.

Be a man."

But it doesn't really matter about being male or female, it's just how the person grieves.

ALESIA: Grief is the universal response to change.

All of us do it, but we do it differently, it's unique.

The phases that grief has been described to us as may or may not fit, and we have to give each other permission around that so that we can really present ourselves as supportive and safe.

Because we can make it unsafe for each other with having an expectation around what someone else's grief journey is.

JAN: You know, in this family, not only did they lose a child, they lost a grandparent, and that whole role of multiple losses at one time.

The one part of that clip that really struck me was the young man who said, you know, "Come on, be a man, suck it up."

And it's amazing to me when people are grieving how people want to tell us how we should be instead of giving us permission to be who we are.

And I liked when he said, "It doesn't matter if you're male or female, you've got to deal with your grief."

Have you worked with families that have had multiple losses and what did you find was helpful for them to acknowledge both people who died, knowing that the relationships were going to be different and they had to grieve each of those people?

NEIL: The loss of a fire is actually something that we have dealt with.

And what a lot of people to realize is, not only do you have the human loss of life, but a lot of times with a fire, there's also all the loss of the memorabilia.

So you've lost your loved ones, but you've lost pictures and trinkets and collectibles along with that.

And so now the family's not only having to pick back up the pieces of their memories through their grief, but the cues and the things that they can use a lot of times to help themselves with that or no longer there, which just compounds the pain.

You don't want to grade different types of loss, but in that particular instance, it can be doubling as far as the trauma because of the loss of so much on top of just the people, JAN: That whole role of accumulative losses, that it's never just one loss.

It's, even when a person dies, it's all the roles that they played in our family, the primary loss, but the secondary losses can be just as devastating and traumatic to a family as having the death of their loved one and those memories are taken away from them.

SHEILA: At Companions on a Journey, what we do, one of the activities is we give them puzzle pieces and we have them write the name of their loved one down who has died, and it can be in multiples.

But then all the different components that that person was to them in their lives, what they meant to them and what were the other losses that they had.

So that when they can see, just as you shared with the fire, that they've lost their father or their brother, they've lost their cheerleader, their coach, the person that helped them with homework, you know, the breadwinner.

But then they lost all the other avenues.

They can then see, wow, there was a lot of things that I have here that is missing and what do I need to do to try to bring my life back together, you know, to be able to find that person and help them to know who is somebody else they can identify to be able to maybe help them with their homework, you know, or for families to be able to talk about, you know, what they're going to do from here.

You know, because I know for children who have a mother or father die and the grandmother was the matriarch, you know, in the family here, you know, that role, that's a big role for somebody to have, you know?

So when you're missing that matriarch, you know, who can I turn to now?

And I think children when they're grieving, and especially for families and parents when they're grieving, it's very important for children to have someone identified that they can turn to and to ask the children who it is that they feel most comfortable with, I think is the important thing so that they don't feel alone.

But a lot of times, you know, children are afraid that it's going to happen again, you know, so I think it's very important to talk about that.

Another thing that we do is we give every child a slinky, and every person, in fact, that comes through Companions on a Journey's doors.

We give them a slinky and we talk about we build protective walls.

We talk about our hearts being a base of love with lots of feelings and emotions coming out, tears, you know, anxiety, emotions, memories.

But, you know, taking one breath, one step at a time, you know, to realize that we're not going to be completely balanced.

And I think no matter what type of death that they're experiencing, they're going to be off balance.

And I think sometimes when they feel off balance, it's like, "What's going on with me?"

Their days, they're confused.

They feel like they're going to bottom out.

Most of the time we're going to spring back up, but it takes time.

So we really encourage them to name the people and the places and the things that they can turn to to give them comfort.

And it might be finding a new comfort.

It might be going and having an ice cream or being able to have somebody make cookies with them or go for a walk or go to a ballgame.

So when they can see that there's other things in life that will help them, you know, in their healing process, we're there to help them that find that hope, strength and healing.

JAN: That's kind of a good transition.

Our next video clip is going to talk about a young man who lost his sister in an accident.

MEGAN: The night of Nate's memorial service, we had, I think it was over 700 people there, and I think maybe two people asked how I was doing.

Everybody else asked how my parents were doing.

And there's just like, "Guys, I'm having a hard time too."

I think people don't understand the connection that you have with a sibling and it's something that's a lot harder than people realize.

JOYAL: The sibling relationship is one of the longest that anyone has in their lifetime.

A lot of people say that kids are resilient and that they can make it through anything.

But I think one of the places where society may need to reconsider their position is just how resilient children really are and that they can become invisible in all of this.

Oftentimes, we will tell the surviving sibling, "You now have to be strong for your parents."

You have essentially told them, "You cannot grieve because your parents need you to be strong for them."

MEGAN: It has been incredibly hard living in the house with my parents as the only kid now.

Usually your parents are the people that you can go to, but I feel like I can't because they're going through a tough time.

I just kind of forget about it and pretend like nothing's wrong and nothing's happening.

JAN: Well, it's really powerful when you hear several things, first of all, when someone says, "Well, you can't grieve, you have to be strong because your parents are grieving," and that sense of feeling invisible.

And I think many times people are grieving feel invisible anyway because people don't know what to say to them.

But being a teenager and then all of a sudden going from a family of four to a family of three, now you become an only child.

How really difficult it is and how we know kids are resilient, we know teenagers are resilient.

But at the same time, we still have to acknowledge that they carry feelings and emotions with them and not to put a burden on them to carry someone else's grief, but to encourage them to carry their own grief.

Sally, what are some of the things in your teens groups that you've done?

SALLY: Yeah, and so at Fernside children and teens are not invisible.

We actually have a specific support group for children who are grieving the death of a brother or a sister.

And then we also have adult groups for parents who are grieving the death of a child.

And it is a unique loss.

I can relate to that.

I myself lost a son many years ago and my daughter was eight at the time and our family came to Fernside and it truly was life changing for us.

But Jan, you asked specifically about teens.

And you know, teens are at such a point in their development where they're trying to become a little bit more independent and get their own identity and break away from the family.

So when you layer grief onto that, it really does complicate it.

One of the things that I think we all in the community find helpful about support groups is it gives families that place and that outlet to process things.

Oftentimes when I'm speaking with new families on the phone, you know, they'll say, "My teen just goes in his room and he shuts the door and he doesn't want to, you know, he doesn't want to talk or he doesn't want to talk to me."

And teens can be reluctant to talk to their parents.

They're worried they're going to upset their parents.

Likewise, parents, you know, often times don't want to talk to their their son or daughter.

And so families can kind of get in this loop where they're in the same house, but they're grieving differently and the communication is not happening.

So that's why support groups at Fernside or other places are wonderful at giving families an outlet to kind of start to process what's happened in the family.

And we talk, we have different themes that we touch on at Fernside, whether that's, you know, feelings or changes or memories.

Oftentimes we hear from families that their best conversations with their teen is in the car ride home after group because everyone's been in their groups together and then they have that 10, 15 minute drive home in the car and they're stuck there.

And, you know, the teen doesn't have to look directly at their parent and yet they can have that really meaningful conversation.

SHEILA: At Companions on a Journey, the one thing we believe a family that grieves together heals together.

And a child old enough to love is old enough to grieve.

We've worked with young children.

And I think it's important when you can bring families together and they can -- One of the activities, drawing a picture of a heart.

You know, when everybody draws that, they can see that mom and dad are grieving, but also they can see that their children are grieving.

And it's great to be able to see that.

JAN: Let's continue on, because I think the next clip is going to be a follow up of this conversation.

SHEILA: Yeah.

BECKY: He and I always had a very special bond.

You know, you hear about Mama's boy?

He was mama's boy.

It was actually Nathan's best friend that told me he died.

It's amazing what your brain can really block out.

I look back now and I hear people tell me things that happened, I don't remember.

You just really have a hard time functioning.

I don't even know how you explain what your brain does.

We would just be simply going somewhere and you'd forget how to get there.

There's so much that goes on inside grief, aside from emotions, things like memory problems.

Short term memory can be completely trashed.

Reading comprehension can go sort of sideways and wonky.

General forgetfulness, all of those things are really, really normal.

But because we don't talk about this stuff, grieving people often think there's something massively, massively wrong.

JAN: You know, I think that point, you know, we -- for people that go through chemotherapy, we often talk about chemo brain where they can't process or can't remember things.

We forget that when people are grieving, it's the same thing.

They're so overwhelmed with emotions and feelings and loss and wondering how they're going to put one foot in front of another.

And yet they have to continue with decision making.

"I've got to figure out to do this and I have to do that."

That I think the more that we can normalize those experiences for those that we serve and work with, the better they're going to be because we're normalizing.

No, you're not crazy.

No, you're not.

There's not something going on in there.

I know as a counselor, I've had that often where people will say, "I don't know what's wrong with me.

I'm forgetting this and I can't do that."

I think that's a common experience.

We've all probably been there.

But is there one thing that you will say to someone when they would say to you, "I'm having problems concentrating or I'm afraid something's wrong with me because I don't -- I'm not able to make decisions.

I don't remember what I'm supposed to do."

What's been the one most helpful hint that you've given families that you've worked with?

SALLY: I'll just jump in.

So, you know, to your point, sometimes in groups we'll kind of kid around with the group members, we'll say, you know, "No, I'm not crazy.

I'm just grieving."

You know, that we should get T-shirts made that say that because grief is just such an overwhelming thing.

I think especially for families, we encourage them to keep their routines is as normal as can be.

You know, children thrive in structure and routines and predictable things.

You know, often times children enjoy going to school after a death because they know what the day is going to be like.

They know, for example, at 10:00, they're going to be in math class and at 2:00 they're going to be in English class or what have you.

And so they like that structure.

And so, you know, we always encourage families to kind of, you know, keep to their normal bedtime routine, especially if you're working with very young children and keep the routines normal.

JAN: Neil?

NEIL: When you talk about a common saying is the fog of grief.

We talk about a lot of times when families come in and they sit down and they just stare blankly at you.

And the first thing out of their mouths is usually, "I don't know where to start."

So the first thing that you have to have a conversation, "This doesn't have to, number one, be all decided today."

You know, you have some people coming in, in 15 minutes, "Yeah, this is what I want."

And most of the time it's a process.

And you've got to give the family permission to say, "You don't have to decide this."

There's times we've actually looked at the family and said, "You're not ready for this yet.

Go take care of these things first.

Get through this first."

We've had families show up just before the day of a funeral, between death and a funeral, trying to make these decisions.

And most of those times it's, "Folks, you've got so many other things to work through now.

Focus on those things first and then come back and understand that this is a process."

And so by giving them that permission, it allows them to process through that fog of grief.

And every person is different and at any moment you're going to have those times when you just kind of blank out.

You've got to reassure them that that's okay.

The book that the one lady wrote, It's OK That You're Not OK, I's an important thing to remind families.

JAN: And I know when I was doing support groups, I used to tell folks, make a list and when someone says, "Well, let me know if I can do anything," to say, "Oh, well, you know, I need the grass cut or could you show me how to use a hedger," little things.

And when you're doing this, because most of the time people really want to be helpful, but they don't know even what they need.

So I used to tell people make a list.

And most of the time people would say, "You know, my neighbor's like, 'Well, yeah, I can do that.'"

And it made them feel good, but it was helpful.

Sheila, anything that you do for Companions?

SHEILA: You know, one of the things that we do is, one, we become present to their present moment.

You know, I think that it's so important to families when they're coming in.

And then sometimes children will all start talking and they'll go, "I really don't know how to explain this."

And we talk about how it affects our body, our minds, our spirits.

And we do an activity, body scans, you know, and we'll have them draw that body scan.

And when everybody starts to share and they're sharing, "I can't think," you know, "I'm angry."

"I feel like a weight's on my shoulders."

Then it validates it for everyone.

So we do validate, but I also talk about the hole that I felt in my heart and ADD of grief is real, you know.

JAN: Great.

Well, let's let's watch another clip and see what other experiences of loss families might be experiencing.

ZEE: For the first two, almost three years, nothing made me really happy.

There were a lot of those articles on 30 things you should do before you turn 30, but there's no articles on the Internet that say, OK, here's what you should be doing in your 30s when you spent your 20s caretaking for your mom and dealing with terminal illness.

So it was a fairly lonely feeling.

I took a lot of the emotional grief and transformed it into physical pain.

Grief is not pathological, but we know that grief can really take a toll physically on people.

Grief can make you feel exhausted.

Grief can change your appetite.

Grief can also cause inflammation in the body.

So you often hear of individuals having health issues after the death of a loved one.

And there may actually be a biological cause to that.

ZEE: Eventually, the physical pain just got really bad.

I was getting migraines every day, shoulder pain, and I kind of knew that, OK, this is grief related.

And my doctor said, "Well, if you increase your exercise, that could help."

What ended up happening is I really enjoyed lifting weights.

This was probably the first time I was really excited about something again.

I think being physically healthier and having those feelings of excitement made me a little bit more mentally and emotionally capable of dealing with some of my issues with grief.

JAN: Well, I think that that's something that we all need to think about is the physical aspect of grief.

We know emotionally it takes a toll on us, but we have to find a way to get it out.

And most of the time is that we're mentally exhausted, but we're feeling something physical.

We may feel like we're carrying weights around with us.

How do you encourage families or individuals to deal with the weight of grief from a physical standpoint?

SHEILA: I would say, first of all, we use an activity, it's a backpack of rocks, and we talk about what we all carry and everybody carries something differently.

You know, and when we think about what we're carrying and we can name it and claim it, that's 3/4 of the battle.

And I think it's very important to be able to do something just to be able to get out what is going on.

A lot of times we'll say, "Tell us what's going on in your mind.

Tell me what you're carrying."

You know, sometimes they're afraid to share it, you know, so we work with them individually or in the groups as well to be able to get them to share.

JAN: Neil, have you had anyone that has wanted to help create that memorial, like physically shaped whatever you're helping them create?

NEIL: There are varying degrees of participation.

And the one thing we do encourage is that we get as much participation as possible.

What we always tell families is we can't get into your mind's eye and the more information you can provide us, the more that you can share, the more effective we can reflect back what you're sharing with us.

And so you get people that do everything from bringing in sketches, pictures.

We really encourage drawing out memories.

We've had a few people that say, "Hey, can we watch this process happen or can we be involved in that process?"

But for the most part, it's the creative process they work in and get very involved, especially with traumatic death, unexpected death, death of a young one, they will very much get involved because that's one place where they can take that physical pain and channel that energy into something productive by creating this.

And where memorialization becomes so vital is it is an outlet and a channel to be able to take care of both the physical and the emotional process that you're going through during grief.

JAN: Sally, any physical activities that you do with the families you serve?

SALLY: Yeah, so I think just overall, we really try to build resiliency with the families that we serve.

And part of that, especially when you're working with children and teens, is helping them to identify ways to cope.

So we have lots of different activities where we'll allow the child to explore, "Well, you know what helps you, Sheila, when you're feeling down and you're missing your person?"

Maybe it's listening to music.

Maybe for another person, it's going outside and, you know, playing basketball or riding their bike, getting some energy out.

Sometimes it's writing and journaling and giving kids a prompt, you know, the thing I miss most about my person is, and then giving them time to journal.

So I think it's really helpful to help families know how to identify the support systems around them, whether that's an activity that they're doing or a person that they can talk to SHEILA: And trying to find ways that they can have continuing bonds with them, you know, because when you lose someone, you lose that physical presence, but there still can be that spiritual presence that you have with them, you know.

And those continuing bonds can be writing a letter.

It can be drawing a picture of them or it can be writing a message and putting it in a bottle or in an ornament.

All those kind of things are so important to be able to teach them that even though they're not here physically, they'll still always be with us in our hearts and their love will remain with us.

NEIL: And that's why it's important too to talk a lot of times.

We always talk about the person who's passed in the past.

It's a past tense thing.

An important thing sometimes to do is talk about that person in the present tense because their memories are present.

Their memories are present and will be in the future.

So instead of how, you know, tell me about how they were, tell me about how they are.

Tell me what you like about them.

It keeps them in the present tense, which means that a piece of them, even if it's the memory, is still with you and encouraging people to understand that that is still, you know.

Yes, they have passed, but a piece of them will always be here and moving forward will always be with you.

[crosstalk] SHEILA: I'm sorry.

I think it is important.

Bereaved parents will share with us a lot of times people will say, "Well, what was your child's name?"

My child's name is, my sister's name is, you know.

"Tell me about your sister."

Those things are so, so important.

JAN: I think just encouraging our families to once again allow them to be -- it's OK to go back to the gym.

It's OK to go out for a run or a walk or bike ride.

You know, if it's going and hitting a bucket of golf balls.

I think we just need to let them know that's OK.

It's going back to that permission.

Why don't we watch another video clip and see what other types of concerns those who are grieving have?

MEGAN: There's like certain key moments that I remember that I still feel that same pain I felt then.

Like when I left the hospital in a wheelchair without my baby.

MICHELLE: You try to push away your grief because you're the strong person.

You're supposed to be there to support your child who's going through the most difficult time of her life.

So you grieve in little snippets of time.

MEGAN: My son Mason is in fourth grade.

What I try to do with him is trying to not forget that he also had a loss.

He thought he was going to have a sibling growing up with him and now he doesn't.

MASON: I was excited about teaching her things.

I still feel sad when I think about it.

MEGAN: In the situation that we had, you don't get very many memories, so you have to make the most of the time that you have.

There's certain parts that I remember and stick out to me.

MICHELLE: Megan laying down one evening on this little cot that was on the floor and just watching her stomach just move all over the place and being able to feel that.

I think that's probably my favorite moment with her.

MEGAN: I thought grief was something that you go through and you feel sad for a little while and then you're OK again.

As time went on, I'm like, "OK, well, how long am I really going to feel this way?"

Because we don't talk about the lived reality of grief.

Even grieving people think, "It's been six months.

Why am I still so sad?

What's wrong with me?"

Nothing's wrong with you, you're human.

For those whose intimate daily lives are affected by the death of somebody, you're not even out of the initial fog at six months.

You have to live without that person on a day to day basis for the rest of this life.

That's going to take more than six months.

JAN: You know, I think this is another example of disenfranchised grief, those who have stillbirths or miscarriages.

And before we go along too much further, I just like to remind folks that there is a list of resources available on the CET website.

So if you are dealing with grief and would like to know about some local or national organizations that can help, please know that we do have a list of resources available.

What struck me with this video was the multi generational experience of loss.

An adult mother watching her adult child grieve the death of her child.

She's grieving the death of her grandchild and she's got another grandchild.

We've got this mother who has a son grieving the loss of this child that he never got to know, thinking he was going to have a sibling.

I think we forget so many times that it's not just the person who experienced a loss, it's grief affects everyone in the family and in different ways.

It's based on relationship.

It's based on roles.

And many times we forget that it's not just that immediate person, but other members of the family and the extended family.

It might be coworkers, it could be friends who are grieving that loss also.

I don't know how we can help families because so many times people want to take care of each other.

"Well, I can't let them know that I'm feeling something because I want to put the focus on them," so I ignore my grief.

When you have families that are dealing with a multi generational experience of loss, how do you encourage every member in that family to experience with or live their grief in some way so that they're not denying it, so that they can be present for someone else in the family?

Go ahead.

SALLY: Yeah, I was just going to say, you know, it's so true, we serve so many families that, you know, no matter if it's a child in the family that died.

So it affects the the parent and the grandparents.

Or on the flip side, if we have a grandparent that dies and that affects, you know, the adult parent and then the grandchild, it's just hard.

At Fernside we just try and give families a place to have that space to grieve in whatever way they need to grieve.

We have a wonderful activity called the Intangible Gifts, where we invite group members to share what is something, what is a characteristic or a trait that you shared with your person?

And maybe you both had a quirky sense of humor, or maybe you both have the same color eyes.

What is something that you learned to do from that person?

You know, maybe you shared a common interest of baking cookies or a love for, you know, sports statistics or whatever, whatever it is.

But connecting on that level.

And then also too, looking at, you know, well, how do you want to follow in that person's footsteps, you know?

Maybe there's something, a tradition that you want to carry forward or, you know, often times we serve families where maybe the relationship was not such a healthy and a happy one with their person who died, you know?

And so maybe it's how do you want to make different choices than your person made, you know?

And just giving them a space to share and process all that is, you know.

And I think Sheila said before, we're just present with those families.

(crosstalk) JAN: I'm going to transition because I think this is an important part when we talk about multi generational, is also to talk about men in grief.

And I think our next video clip is going to address a little bit of what the experience of being a man who experiences a loss in his family and how that might be a little different.

So, if we could transition.

I understand that people don't want to say the wrong things.

But one of the difficult parts for me is people don't talk about Nate.

They'll ask about my girls, ask about my grandchildren, but they will not.

It is as if he never existed.

And that's rough because I like to talk about Nate.

He's my son.

I would say, even if you asked me a question about Nate and it got me choked up, that's OK.

I don't mind.

To be able to share a little bit of his life is wonderful.

JAN: You know, I think that's such an important concept.

And I can remember having a client one time who was so angry that everyone always asked, how is your wife, how's -- No one ever asked him how he was doing.

And when he went back to work, they kept giving him reports.

And when evaluation came, he got a poor evaluation.

And his manager said, "I don't know what's wrong.

You've always been this high, productive person."

And he finally let out, "Not one person's asked me.

And, you know, you expect me to function in a way," we've already talked about having grief brain and not being able to think clearly.

And the manager said to him, "Well, before you came back, we talked and we thought if we could keep you busy, that was the best thing we could do for you."

And yet this man wanted someone to ask him how he was doing.

He wanted to be able to mention his son's name.

He wanted to be able to talk about the loss he had.

And so we have this notion, I think, in our society where I'm not going to ask you anything if I think it's going to upset you.

So we'll just pretend it didn't happen.

Or I'm going to ask you about something that's not about you, because if I get an emotional response from you, I don't know how to respond.

I think that that's such a sad part because it doesn't affect just men who are grieving, but I think it can affect everyone in the workplace.

It can affect friends, family members.

We just don't know how to respond.

I know it's so important, and I think all of us here always say call them by name, you know, tell us about them.

You know, don't just say he or she.

And I would often say to people, "What was their name?"

It helps personalize that.

What are some of the things that you do to encourage maybe men or maybe the quiet person in the family to make sure that their voice is heard?

SHEILA: Well, I think it's important for them to know that it's OK for their voices to be heard.

We just did a segment, Come Sit at Our Table; Journey of a Man's Grief.

And men want to be able to share.

They feel more comfortable sharing with women than they do other men.

And then when you talk about, you know, generationally how we have raised our sons, you know, and young men.

You know, if somebody skins their knee, you know, you're, "Usually brush it off, you're going to be OK." You know?

But we have to change and break that cycle.

And when they're sharing with us in groups, you know, "I just wish that people would hear me," you know.

Then we encourage them, "What would you want them to hear?

What would you want to say and what do you want them to hear?"

You know, and I think once they get to talk about that, it becomes easier.

But at first I think it's breaking the protective wall that they've had conditioned all their life, you know, taking one brick down at a time, you know.

So I think that that's the important piece.

And also in families, we let everyone know that everybody grieves.

Everybody may grieve differently, but then we encourage people each to share an aspect of their grief, you know, which I think is so, so important.

JAN: And I think we also have to remember that even within ethnic groups that we have, you know, different expectations placed on different members of the family.

And so we need to make sure that no matter who we're working with and what their background is, that we first of all, that we understand what their background is and what are their grief rituals.

But then how do we encourage them to deal with their grief in a way that feels safe but still honors their, if it's a religious belief, it's a cultural belief, that somehow we know that we've heard them, their voice is important, and we respect them?

But then how do we help them somehow find a ritual or some way to talk about the grief in a way that honors the person who died, but then honors their own religious or ethnic traditions?

SALLY: I was just going to say, if I could just add too.

I think it's really important that, let's say you're a person out there and you have a friend who's grieving or a family member who's grieving to kind of start that conversation.

And you can even start by saying, "You know, I'm not sure if I'm expressing this well or I'm not sure if I have the right words, but I'm thinking of you."

You know, it doesn't always have to be, you know, this perfect little conversation.

It's just that you're present, you're genuine, and you make the effort.

NEIL: But it touches on something that I don't think we have really addressed is a larger societal issue.

We as a society are lousy at death.

We have not taken the time to understand death, to face death, to understand how to deal with death.

And so what tends to happen in our society is we tend to keep wanting to sweep it under the rug in a million different ways.

And so until we have an honest conversation in our general society about the fact that death is inevitable.

That by talking about death, it doesn't mean you're going to die.

In being open and honest with it, then you have the space to stumble over a comment.

You have the space to take a comment in stride when you're grieving.

We don't have that common language right now.

And so, therefore, in so many ways, we are silenced by the ignorance that this society has about death.

SHEILA: And it's so important, I think, even in the support groups that we do in the schools working with young men to be able to let their voices be heard, you know, and encourage them to have that communication with their families.

It's been phenomenal.

So if we can teach them young in life how to let their voices be heard, we'll have a much better society in the future.

JAN: Let's watch another video clip.

Where we feel cared for inside our deepest pain and we feel capable and confident in caring for our people's pain, our friends', our family members' pain, then we need to open these conversations.

It's hard and it's awkward and it's uncomfortable, but it is necessary.

And it's not impossible.

You can open conversations about grief, they're really conversations about love.

STEVEN MICHAEL: Grief never goes away; it just stays.

For TJ's birthday, we have like a party.

TYANA: Every year on his birthday, I have cake and ice cream so that all his siblings are together remembering him.

Celebrating him.

His siblings blow out his birthday candle every year.

[singing happy birthday] STEVEN MICHAEL: It's crazy to think that my brother and my grandma was just, poof, out of my life, but still in my memory.

Everybody, listen up.

On the count of three, Happy birthday, TJ.

One, two, three.

Happy birthday, TJ.

[cheers] There's one thing that we are promised the day that we're born.

One thing that will absolutely 100% happen, that is that one day we will die.

Whether it's now or whether it's in 10, 15, 20, 30 years, someone around us will experience the death of someone significant in their life.

If at the end of this, all we can do is simply normalize and validate their experience, we will be better humans and the taboo-ness of grief will cease to exist.

JAN: I think these video clips have really given us some insight to what people feel and experience when they've lost a loved one.

That grief does impact each of us and we've got to find our ways to help people understand, as Neil said before, we're not going to jinx ourselves if we talk about grief.

What I liked about this last clip was this family coming together every year to honor their loved one.

That's normal.

That's a way to keep their memory alive.

One of the things that were encouraged during this video, during this program was for people to submit questions.

And fortunate for us, I guess, is that we have several questions that came in.

So we're going to try to address as many of the questions in the best way that we can.

So we'll go through these kind of quick.

One of the questions we have is: SHEILA: I think we need to support them as we would anyone.

We need to reach out to them, allow them to talk about their loved one, and to talk about the many different layers of their grief.

You know, with COVID, they weren't allowed to have the memorials that we all used to have.

Everything changed.

And a lot of times people will ask them, did they have underlying conditions?

I think we just need to be present to them, to listen to them, and let them share about their loved one and what they meant to them.

JAN: Thank you.

Another question: SALLY: I can answer that one.

I think joy is so, so important, you know.

When finding the joy and finding the things that pull us forward and fill our hearts back up, you know, grief doesn't take over all aspects of our life and certainly we don't get rid of it overnight.

But finding things that bring us comfort, finding things that feed our spirit, slowly putting these pieces back into our life can really help us move forward.

So finding joy is really important.

JAN: And I think that's the lesson that children teach us.

They're not able to stay in pain.

They can, you know, if you've ever had a child that scrapes their knee and you think it's broken, you kiss the boo boo and they're off running along.

Children don't have the ability to stay in pain.

I think we as adults have to give our self that same permission, it's OK to find joy in life.

It's OK to see beauty and whatever ways that means.

So if it's spiritual, if it's emotional, if it's something in nature.

But whatever it is, I think finding joy is a hope.

It's an anchor during this time of grief.

SHEILA: Yes.

JAN: Another question is: JAN: I think we've talked a little bit about grief scares people.

NEIL Because we're lousy at grief.

Yeah, I think the thing that we have to understand is it is, and I think the gentleman said it in the video clip, it is more important to stumble through saying something than saying nothing.

Because the worst thing you could do for a person that's grieving is pretend like, number one, their grief doesn't exist and pretend almost like they don't exist, because all that does is amplify the grief.

So do your best to be compassionate.

And if you fall on your face doing it, if you do it in a loving way, then the message will reach.

JAN: And I think it's also if it happened to you, it could happen to me.

I think that's why grief scares people.

And I would -- I can't speak for why women in the office treated that way, but I think sometimes it hits a little bit too close to home.

And if it happened to you it could happen to me and it just scares them.

NEIL: Fear.

JAN: Another question is: JAN: Wow, I think we've all worked with people who have had that experience.

Any words of advice or wisdom?

SALLY: I would just say that, you know, here again, everyone grieves differently and sometimes we're very expressive and can talk openly to what we feel and what we need and other people just keep everything bottled up.

And so it can be a difficult thing.

JAN: I think also that it's been an experience where those that we often think are going to be there for us are not the ones that really rise to the occasion.

I think we need to be open to the fact that I may be disappointed in the person who I thought was going to be there.

But can I embrace the fact as somebody I never would have expected this response knows maybe what I'm going through, understands, and wants to respond?

SALLY: Yeah.

JAN: So we have to be careful not to judge someone because they don't respond the way we want them to, but to find and embrace those that will accept us for who we are in that moment.

NEIL: That's tough.

I mean, you look at hospice and as a network of organizations, they do so much incredible work in palliative care and end of life care.

And not knowing an individual situation, I think it's so hard.

And again, there's the individual part of it.

Right?

And I think anybody that has the feeling that something precipitated has to be able to be given the permission to work through that because it's going to take time.

You know, if you are angry about something, especially when it comes with grief, there's no, again, timeframe to work through that.

And so talking to people, talking to professionals, working through that grief, not just by yourself, but with others, I think can help get you to the point where you can manage and have a perspective on what happened at any particular time during the process.

JAN: And having worked in the hospital, I always encourage people to follow up.

If you have those questions, you have that anger, keep asking until you get -- until you get an answer that you can accept.

It doesn't mean you like it.

It may not be the answer you want, but you have that right to understand what happened and to let them know how this has impacted your life.

So I think that's where we help people find their voice with their grief.

SHEILA: I would say this: talk about your son.

You might have to be the ice breaker because a lot of people around you may be afraid to bring up his name or remember the anniversaries.

You know, a lot of times people come to me and say, "You know, I know it's the anniversary of my sister's child's death, but I'm not going to talk to her because she's doing OK today."

So I say to them, "Do you think your sister is not thinking about her child this day?"

You know?

But if you're not hearing, that your child's name is not being mentioned or remembered, then you do it.

You bring up their names.

You talk about things.

You have a remembrance.

You know, just as we just saw in that video, you know, them having the balloon release and having the birthday party.

I think we have to sometimes give people permission to grieve by us bringing it up.

SALLY: Hmm.

So being in this part of the country, we're not extremely close to a military base, but certainly we have families that serve and are in our area.

I think, you know, it can be especially difficult because it's in essence, they gave their life for a greater good or a greater cause for the country.

And it can be really difficult.

It can also be difficult if, you know, politically people don't agree with the cause of the war.

There can be that.

It can be very difficult, very difficult.

I know that there are certain organizations, the TAPS program and different organizations through the government that do provide specific support for families that are grieving a military loss.

JAN: I think with Wright Pat not being too far from us and being more in your service area, that we need to reach out as professionals to say how do we help someone?

There are some good resources that are available through the TAPS organization, through the VA, and through professional organizations like the Association for Death Education and Counseling or the National Alliance for Grieving Children.

They have some great links that can help families connect with someone else who's going through the death of a loved one, especially those who lost a loved one serving our country.

We've got another question: SHEILA: We've never had a problem.

In fact, I have a lot of people say, "How are you able to get people of color to come to your group and share what they share?"

And mine is, I think because we become present to the present moment, we have a sincere heart.

We're here to serve them, to journey with them.

And I think in any support group we can say nobody's looking at another person saying, "Wait a minute, you're a different color, so you shouldn't be sharing what you're going through."

Rather, "We've all lost a loved one, you know, and together we are companions on a journey, journeying with each other."

Because it takes a village and I think we've been blessed that way to be able to love one another JAN: The importance of creating a safe environment too that everyone should feel welcome when they come in.

And many times it may be a person of color may be the only one in a group of five, six, seven people.

And if we can help people understand that this is a universal experience and it doesn't -- color -- it doesn't matter what our color is, it doesn't matter what our religious beliefs are, it doesn't matter what our educational background is.

What brings us together at that moment is a commonality of grief.

We all lost someone.

I think that's hard at times.

I think in anything that we do, we have to make sure that people feel safe and that they know that their voice is being heard and we're not going to pass judgment on them.

But I think this past year, we've become, so much more aware also of differences, and we need to find a way to help them understand there's commonalities and we can all be -- We're all in this together.

Grief is not a lonely boat that you should be in by yourself.

But there's people that will help get in that boat with you.

I have another question here that says: JAN: Is that abnormal?

NEIL No, not at all.

I mean, dreams about passed loved ones is incredibly common.

Dreams where they're almost vivid, dreams where they will interact with you.

Sometimes they're across a room, that is incredibly common, not only at the initial part of the grieving experience, but on throughout life.

And, you know, there's no way to know what triggers that.

But it is a very, very common experience for those who have lost people.

JAN: And I think the past few years there's been so much more research done on dreams, there's been many books that have been written about dreams.

I think that helps normalize.

Once again, some people will dream about their loved ones.

Some people won't.

But we know that that's a part of the healing process in a sense of a way to keep them alive.

Or sometimes it may be also helping us to deal with an unresolved issue we might have had with that person who died and it comes up through our dreams.

The next question I think is interesting, because I think this happens more than we want to admit.

The person wrote: SHEILA: That's a tough one.

You know, I think it's, again, being able to ask -- to talk to their daughter about this, but to also who are the people in the family that bring them comfort?

You know, to be able to reach out to other family members.

And if there's no other family members, is there someone in their community or friends of theirs that can truly help them?

You know, I think that it's identifying people in their lives.

You know?

I know that was a big thing for my son when my husband died.

He was afraid that something was going to happen to me.

And we sat down and we talked about, you know, who in our family did he feel comfortable with, you know?

And we allowed him to choose who he would go and live with.

You know?

Adult grief, especially when you've lost a parent and a sibling, can be very isolating.

And I think, again, it's very important to be able to have them talk to a therapist, come to a support group to realize that they're not alone on this grief journey.

JAN: Thank you.

Another question is: SALLY: Again, I would just say that we don't have to have the perfect words.

You know, if you are concerned about a family member or a dear friend, just make that time to reach out and connect with them.

Whether that's picking up the phone and giving them a call, stopping by, and even just starting the conversation with, "You know, I'm not sure I'm going to say the right thing, but I'm here for you and I'm thinking of you.

And I'm remembering your mom, your dad, your brother, your sister or your grandparent."

And just really being present and genuine.

JAN: And I would always tell people, avoid cliches.

SALLY: Yeah.

JAN: I think there's nothing worse than a cliche.

And sometimes just even to say, "I don't know what to say.

I just want you to know I'm here."

SALLY: Yeah.

JAN: You know, I think that there's no right words to say because we can't make it better.

But we can help them know that we're here with them.

SALLY: Yeah.

JAN: Those are the right words that there are.

There's no one phrase that's ever going to capture the correct way to say it.

NEIL: I would say start digging into why they're stuck.

You know, there's lots of resources, whether they're are groups like the organizations that these ladies belong to.

A lot of times people will get to a part of the process and kind of get stuck.

From my side of the business, I will see a lot of times with cremation that is not memorialized because it creates this false sense that the person is almost still there.

And so there's a big movement to get people to understand that the ceremony that has been kind of pooh-poohed recently is profoundly important because it forces you to face the reality of death, which allows the grieving process to move -- The process never completes, but it allows it to move forward.

So a lot of times where I see stuck, is where some way, shape, or form there hasn't been that final reality in understanding or just the cold fact of that death being present through ceremony.

And having that ceremony helps that, as difficult as that can be at the time.

JAN: And that's what I would encourage someone too is to seek support through a group or individual counseling.

There's nothing wrong with reaching out and having someone help us, especially when grief becomes complicated.

Another question is: SHEILA: I would say it's important to talk about it.

And if there's someone that feels uncomfortable, then that might not be the person that you need to be with at the moment.

But a lot of times, again, I think it's a fear that a person has that they're uncomfortable talking about death, that they have the fear that they're afraid they're going to say something wrong.

So I think if we can share that with the person that's grieving, that feels, you know, like nobody wants to talk to them or that they're uncomfortable, it helps them.

But if there are people that are not giving you what you need, then find the people that can.

SALLY: So guilt is a normal part of grief.

Guilt, and you know, many people feel guilt.

Children sometimes will feel guilty that their parent died and maybe their parent died from something that the child had nothing to do with, you know?

And we all kind of turn back the clock and say, "Oh, if I had only said this.

If I had only reached out then."

So, you know, you just have to kind of work through that, you know, through through a group or with a therapist or just in talking with friends.

I think time helps, too.

Sometimes in the immediate days following the death or the immediate weeks, our grief is so intense.

And sometimes as you kind of work through things, you know, and process things and a little bit further along, that time does help kind of, you know, help with that.

JAN: I think as parents, too, your natural inclination is I want to support or help or guide or protect my child.

And when they die and you're not there to do that can leave a void in your life too, not only did they die, but I could have or should have done something different or something more.

It's giving yourself that permission and not being your own worst enemy.

It's that being gentle with yourself becomes very important.

And I believe this might be our last question.

SALLY: So that is the hard one.

And then sometimes we see this with the preteens and teens, you know, that age is so independent and wanting to do their own thing.

And sometimes it's a matter of a compromise, you know, saying to the child, "Look, let's give this, you know, two or three meetings a try or let's go visit this doctor for a time or two."

You know, normally, you know, once they're there and they see, again, the beauty of peer support groups, when kids can connect with other children and adults their own age and see that they're not alone.

Chances are if they can just be present and listen to what the other kids are sharing, they usually come around.

At Fernside we have just some very basic group rules.

But one of the group rules is that if you don't want to share, you're never going to be forced to share.

So our philosophy is very much that when kids feel like they're ready to connect and contribute, that they will.

But certainly even just sitting in a group and being a part and listening, they're going to get something out of it.

JAN: Well, thank you.

I appreciate the sharing and the openness.

And it'd be great if there was a manual that would say, here's the correct way or here's the answers to all the questions.

All we can do is share our experience or what other folks have shared with us that they found helpful.

So thank you very much for sharing with us.

Thanks.

That's all the time we have tonight.

Please visit speakinggrief.org if you'd like to see the whole video, the documentary, or you can watch it on CET on Sunday, September 12th at 1 p.m. Visit the CET and ThinkTV sites for a list of local resources to help you navigate your journey.

There is no simple or easy way to deal with grief, but please know that you don't have to walk the journey alone.

It's okay to reach out to others and to allow them to help you.

On behalf of Sally, Neil, and Sheila, thank you so much for being a part of our program.

Have a great evening.

KITTY: That concludes tonight's screening and panel discussion.

Thank you to Jan, Neil, Sheila, and Sally for your time and expertise.

And thank you for joining us online.

For additional information and local resources, please visit our websites.

I also encourage you to view the Speaking Grief documentary in its entirety at SpeakingGrief.org.

Take good care and have a good evening.

Captioning: Maverick Captioning CIN OH maverickcaptioning.com